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“Never Follow A Hippie To A Second Location, Lemon.” Or, Wait, What? Ep. 15.2

Jeff Lester

I’d never realized how badly I wanted to type that line as a post title until I actually did.


Anyway, it’s episode 15.2 of Wait, What? and Graeme and I talk about the latest volume of Mome, Kevin Huizenga’s Wild Kingdom, Gangsta Rap Posse and of course….the second issue of Alan Moore’s Neonomicon:

Wait, What? Episode 15.2

As I said, we’re planning on talking next week so we may have new eps. up around Halloween (or just a little after)…and of course, I would love to write a few reviews even though I’m behind on about a dozen things right now (and approximately a half-dozen emails to people I really should’ve written back by now) so we’ll see what happens.

Either way, we hope you enjoy the ‘cast!

7 Responses to “ “Never Follow A Hippie To A Second Location, Lemon.” Or, Wait, What? Ep. 15.2 ”

  1. I remember Moore being quite talkative about Lost Girls being consciously pornographic in the interviews leading up to and following it’s publication. I haven’t read the entirety of the actual work but I think his aim was well documented even if his work wasn’t successfull.

    Also I have located his essay Invisible Women and Phantom Ladies. I will read it this evening. Have either of you read this?

    The one thing I can comment on is that I felt the Promethea issue in question was actually quite touching. And Jeff (I am paraphrasing) mentioning sex as a part of life is worth highlighting. As well as the apparent relationship between sexual consciousness and Moore’s belief system, snake god (hrmmm?).

    I definitely can’t condone a fetishistic perspective on violence towards women and I haven’t read Neomonicon etc. So not so much looking to stick up for Moore there, but wondering if you have read his statements on pornography specifically (in Lost Girls) and mysoginy in general (in Invisible Women…). And if you have do you have any comments related to those statements? It seems like he has been quite vocal on the subject in several interviews etc.

    As always a thoughtfull conversation. Kudos!!!

  2. A reference primarily for Graeme here, but is Neonomicon Alan Moore’s Blackeyes? Will it effect his critical standing in much the same way that Blackeyes affected Dennis Potter’s?

    Personally, I’ve had a growing problem with Moore’s use of rape, or the threat of rape, as a plot device, while very rarely examining the psychological effect of rape beyond a simple justification for that character’s reaction. League of Extraordinary Gentlemen: Century certainly based it’s entire story around the rape of a young girl in a way that seemed there only to set her up as an antagonist in future volumes. Similarly (and to sidestep the sexism argument) it was the anal rape of Johnny Bates that lead to the return of Kid Miracleman and the devastation of London.

    I’ve long been an admirer of Moore, but do agree with Graeme that he peaked as a creative force with From Hell (which, oddly enough, is possibly the last time Moore actually examined the sexual domination of women from a view that wasn’t plot lead, but character lead). Both LOEG: Century and Neocomicon have left a genuine bad taste in my mouth that make me no longer want to pick up his work. Which is a genuine shock for someone like myself who has been a fan of his writing since he contributed back up strips to Dr Who Magazine back in 1979.

  3. In regard to Marvel’s pricing decision, it was almost certainly not made simultaneously to DC’s. Most likely, Marvel was hoping DC would continue to follow their price leadership and keep moving all books toward $3.99, but must have been aware of the possibility that DC would backtrack, and had already made the decision that they would announce a price rollback IF DC made that move. Someone was ready to send out the press release in response to DC’s move, but Marvel wouldn’t have done it if DC hadn’t moved first. DC would also have been aware that Marvel might retaliate by announcing their decrease in response to DC’s, so DC’s management must have come to the conclusion that keeping the industry standard at $2.99 was better for their company than continuing to move it toward $3.99. Marvel probably thought it would be better for them if $3.99 became the standard, but were not willing to keep a higher price when the competition had a lower price. (Incidentally, Brevoort may pretend that he doesn’t care what the competition does, but if that were actually true, he wouldn’t be doing his job, since his company’s fortunes absolutely are affected by what the other firms in the industry do.)

    This is classic oligopolistic behavior, since firms in oligopolistic industries rarely maintain price competition, but rather try to settle on a monopolistic price (which provides the highest total profit for the industry), where there is no incentive for either firm to undercut the other, start a price war, and hurt the profits of both. In this case, apparently, the two firms disagree on the best long-run price for the industry, which can happen when they see differences in demand due to the fact that they are not producing exactly the same product, or because they face cost differences. Based on all this, I think DC should get the credit for pushing the price back down. (Sorry, I’m an economist!)

    I’ve been enjoying the podcasts. It’s between Wait, What? and Splash Page for the crown…

  4. I’m just five minutes in but, yep. I give the win to DC. Mostly because they’re *actually* lowering prices instead of just *saying* that they’re lowering prices. I’m not thrilled by the lesser page count, and I’m going to miss some of the backup features, but on the whole, I’m glad that DC is doing something. Marvel can complain about that all they want, but at the very least, DC is walking the walk instead of just talking the talk.

  5. Kind of surprised by your reaction to Huizenga’s story. Particularly the crazy end of the world sequence. I actually found that to be hilarious in it’s over the top ridiculousness. Granted I’ve only read this in its original mini-comic form in Or Else so I don’t know if the context is different in Wild Kingdom. It was a breathtaking sequence of comic-making regardless of how it affects you in one direction or the other.

    I should note I’m also someone that finds Chris Ware’s stuff (especially Jimmy Corrigan) to be funny whereas a lot of people really don’t.

  6. On the Jimmy back-ups – if you like those, check out Nick Spencer’s Image series ‘Morning Glories’.
    You’ll love it.
    It’s great.

  7. Whoa!
    Just listened to the rest of the podcast… and never have I thought McMillions was more off base!

    Normally I feel you both make rather solid arguments, but this time, as Graeme not only says that anyone who disagrees with him is lying to themselves, he admits to only reading the issue to see the one scene – I have no qualms about saying not only is he wrong about Neonomicon, but he went in reading it, to fit his preconceptions of Alan Moore, and wasn’t ever going to have a different take on the issue.

    Perhaps a rapist would be aroused by the scene, but to assume that the average reader is going to see it as a scene of horror beyond imagining, is quite bizarre.

    The scene, and the scenes leading to it are, in my opinion, are probably supposed to titillate the reader into believing they are about to see an orgy.
    But then, four pages into the arrival at the orgy – at which point I was having a giggle at what may come next – a main character of the series is shot in the head.

    For me, that screamed ‘there’s no going back from this’!
    He starts the horror scene with the murder of the lead!
    Usually this is an end of issue cliffhanger, not something that kicks off the scene leading to that!
    But a murder in itself – not that shocking.

    It’s the glibness of those who did it – two of them laugh about it, and the rest don’t even seem to notice it happens.
    From that point on we’re either seeing what happens next – rape at gunpoint – from the unable to focus eyes of the woman it’s happening to, or it’s just in the background as the other people in the room go about getting their jollies from each other, totally ignoring her cries.

    It’s fucking horrible – horror in the true sense of the word.

    I struggle to think of a worse fate – yet you’re left to imagine the horrors of what will befall her once the monster with the unblinking gaze gets a hold of her.
    You’ve seen the worse you can imagine, next is horror unimaginable.

    I haven’t been this shocked and grossed out since Strange Kiss #1!
    That worked because it played it’s gross out horror for laughs, this works because it’s truly horrifying.

    There’s a similar relationship between between those two books and this book and the shown murder in From Hell – that worked because you were completely removed from the horror that was happening – it was glacial paced, and rather objective in it’s approach.
    This is the counter – it’s completely subjective to the character.
    You experience the nightmare with them.

    Is this Alan Moore’s best work? No.
    But as a work of horror, it left me more horrified than most other horror stories I can think of.

    Maybe it does say something about me, or about society as a whole, that it’s now come to gang rape being shown as the ultimate horror – but on the other hand, I’ve seen other takes on that in film, and the closest I can think of, the rape in the film Bais Moi – completely failed, whereas I feel this works, entirely due to the execution.

    I didn’t go into reading the book to see the one scene, I picked up the first two issues on a whim – having previously enjoyed the adaptation of The Courtyard – so maybe I’ve got a different perspective, but by reading the book to read the book – and not to see what that crazy Alan has done this time – I thought the scene was well done, achieved it’s purpose in genuinely creeping the fuck out of me, and am looking forward to more of the series.

    (And just in case you think I’m only saying this as a blind Moore fan – LoEG Black Dossier was alright at best, Century bored me, and that interview on Bleeding Cool made him sound like a crazy man.
    I just think Graeme saw what he wanted to see.)

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