buskupan

Wait, What? Ep. 101: Little Shavers

Jeff Lester

2001_kirby
Kirby. Kubrick. 2001.

2001 for Episode 101?  I don’t think it’s deliberate, but knowing Mr. McMillan, I wouldn’t entirely rule it out either.

After the jump:  Welcome to a new age of… Show notes!

0:00-1:51: Testing, testing! (Okay, I admit it: the new age of show notes is pretty much exactly like the old age of show notes.)
1:51-6:39:  Graeme (and his new friend, a mystical crow) share an observation about Brian Bendis and his interviews on Word Balloon, which leads to a bit of discussion about our sound problems for Ep. 100.  And if anyone wants to do up a splash page for “Even Troopers Have Their Limits!” as described herein, we would figure out some way to thank you for it (probably in twitter shout-outs and old review copies, and if you’ve listened to enough episodes, you know exactly how the labor for those rewards is being divided).
6:39-10:13: Are you experienced in the art of… K-Box?  Graeme and Jeff begin developing their next money-making scheme before your very eyes–the oral history of infamous Internet commenters.
10:13-29:58: On to the comics! Graeme wraps up his New52 Zero Issue overview with an examination of the highly remarkable revisions to Tim Drake’s history. And Jason Todd’s history. And Guy Gardener’s history.  And Damien Wayne’s history. And Selina Kyle’s history.  You may sense a trend here.  (Also there were a few parts where I could’ve edited out the musings of mystical crow in there, but I didn’t.)
29:58-34:28: You know what’s not an Issue Zero?  Prophet #29 by Brandon Graham and Farel Darymple.  It is probably Jeff’s favorite issue since the reboot, if for no other reason than it nails Space Conan angle he finds so enjoyable.  Graeme is much more coolish on the reboot generally, and that is a thing we rap about at least long enough to provide…
34:28-49:25: The world’s greatest segue to what Graeme has been reading:  Jack Kirby’s 2001: A Space Odyssey!  In the first of this episode’s two dramatic readings, Graeme performs Kirby’s text page from the first issue to help make sure our minds are properly blown.
49:25-53:38: So properly blown are our minds, in fact, that Jeff has to get off the phone and call back due to worries about the tech quality of the call.  (Also, it should be noted:  Jeff is recording despite managing to once again strain his back, and so has taken a muscle relaxant to allow him to twist at the hips easily and sit comfortably and other fun stuff that feels more and more like dire necessities once they are taken away.  For extra Whatnaut points, can you determine precisely when the muscle relaxants kick in and make Jeff even more thickheaded and easily baffled?)  We get back, Graeme wraps up talking about Kirby and then moves on to Steve Englehart’s ’70s run on Dr. Strange.  Us talking admiringly about Englehart is pretty much the free space center spot in the middle of the Wait, What? bingo card, isn’t it?
53:38-59:28: Jeff exhorts Graeme to check out Tom Scioli’s amazing love letter to Marvel Comics, Final Frontier, a webcomic that starts with a quartet of Fantastic Four analogs giving a farewell concert on the roof of their impressively stacked building, and gets only stranger, wilder, and more hilarious from there.
59:28-1:17:34:  Here’s a shocking surprise–Graeme had never heard of Mike Allred’s movie, Astroesque!  Jeff saw it fourteen years or so ago, and can kinda remember it?  From there and a consideration of the Allred mystique, it’s on to discuss the Cult of the Indy Creator, whether it hurts or helps the artist, and what it might mean for comics and/or Matt Wagner (about which, Jeff has bungled some of the points he’s taken from the very keen piece on Wagner by Jason Michelitch over at Hooded Utilitarian ) and/or Gilbert Hernandez.
1:17:34-1:21:12: And from there, we get to Jeff confessing his trepidation about Brandon Graham’s Multiple Warheads and Brian Lee O’Malley’s upcoming Seconds and why or why not that should be the case.
1:21:12-1:21:58: Graeme has a tender moment alone with you, the listener. (Well, more like thirty-five seconds… but it is very, very tender, so there’s that.)
1:21:58-1:30:54:  Then a moment of high drama:  Will Jeff and Graeme remember where they left off?  (They do.) Will they have more to say about the expectations of creators and readers, and their shared responsibility for a work? (Yep.) You must tune in to find out! (Except you don’t, see, because I already told you…but that’s not to say it isn’t interesting listening.)
1:30:54-1:41:48: News time!  It’s more than just a thing Jeff tries to get Graeme to talk about while he tries to find a reference. Kirkman! Millar! Ultimate Avengers hardcover! Sale prices at Comixology!
1:41:48-1:47:31: Time for our second dramatic reading–this time it’s Jeff, covering that well-known cowboy’s lament, Letter from Matt Fraction to Jaime Hernandez in Love & Rockets New Stories #5 (in the key of E).  And maybe we get our new podcast motto out of it?
1:47:31-end: Speed round! (By which I mean, the time of the podcast where we kind of act like we’re on speed.)  Jeff likes The New Deadwardians.  He likes it a lot.  Graeme mentions Larime Taylor, an artist who draws comics with his mouth.  And then we spend some time wondering about Morrisoncon, which will be over by the time you ever hear us talk about it. (And once again, we prove which of us is the optimistic one and which the more pessimistic one.)  Also, the return of our special guest-star, information about our upcoming birthdays, and how you can prepare for at least one of us, should you so choose.
Chances are you can still find us on iTunes, sort of, but, hey, there’s always, like, here?
Wait, What? Ep. 101: Little Shavers
As always, we hope you enjoy…and thanks for listening!

32 Responses to “ Wait, What? Ep. 101: Little Shavers ”

  1. Here’s the editorial review for Astroesque on Amazon:

    A very promising and original first feature by comic book writer (Madman/Red Rocket Seven/etc) Mike Allred. If you only like slick, big budget, Holywood flicks you probably won’t like this. But if you enjoyed Tetsuo: The Iron Man, watched any Troma movie or set your VCR for Joe Bob’s latest pick then this might be up your alley.

    Love the references to Troma and Joe Bob.

    chris

  2. RE: Morrison Con–I am waiting for this to go next level: Cruises! Brubicon is one thing, but how about Bru’s Cruise 2013?

  3. Really Graeme? You don’t have anything more interesting to say about Gilbert Hernandez than “Here’s a guy who likes big tits”? The Palomar stories are some of the most compelling, dense and masterful pieces of sequential storytelling the medium has to offer. Poison River is unbelievable. The ‘big tits’ criticism is so fucking simplistic and boring.

  4. I’ve actually always liked Beto more than Jaime, myself – I’ve always been more attracted to Gilbert’s storytelling chops and willingness to experiment, and his Palomar characters have always seemed more real and grounded in a way that Jaime’s punk goofballs never did. That for me is one of the biggest obstacles to appreciating Jaime’s work – and I’ve tried and tried to like it – it always comes down to building a fondness for characters that always seemed paper-thin at best and obnoxious at worst. For me, Maggie and Hopey were always the least interesting elements of those stories, but the stories revolve around them – and in a way, kind of aggressively demand that you love them as much the characters seem to love themselves, amd it just fails to work for me at all.

  5. Oh man, ASTROESQUE….yeah, not only do I own that on VHS, the accompanying CD THE GEAR, and Allred’s second feature EYES OF HEAVEN. I would say I’m a Mike Allred fan, but none of these things were actually any good at all. The comic that EYES OF HEAVEN comes out of, FEEDER, is kind of great in the Mike Allred doing something clearly inspired by Al Columbia.

    Speaking of Gilbert Hernandez, has anyone else watched his directorial debut, THE NAKED COSMOS? I sure as hell did…it definitely falls into the same camp.
    Another ‘comic artist cum filmmaker': Josh “The Furry Trap” Simmons’ very recently posted THE LEADER: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVBIrKLrKVY

    Jeff, if you haven’t read The Furry Trap, you definitely should. It would be worth it just to hear you describe the stories within to Graeme, and Graeme’s reactions.

  6. I can totally understand why cartoonists would want to be filmmakers – in a way it’s the medium that most closely approximates the level of control and range you get when you’re creating a comic – but the two are still such wildly different animals, and require such wildly different skill sets, that I think the jump from one to the other is a possible recipe for disaster. Chris’s mention of Tetsuo almost makes me want to check out Allred’s movie, though.

    FINAL FRONTIER is absolutely amazing – everyone needs to click that link and read that thing. I will never be able to think of Doctor Doom as anything other than Robot Dracula from here on out.

  7. Oh, just to mention it, Scioli confirmed that American Barbarian sold well enough in book form that Final Frontier was a go for a print edition.

  8. Gaiman Con would probably get a different clientele than they are expecting, but it may not. Just throwing it out there.

    Savagecon on the other hand, would be awesome. Why isn’t there a Podcasters of Comics out there? House to Astonish, Savage Critics, the 4th Letter, the Mindless Ones, the reunion of Funnybook Babylon (in the same way that the Fugees reunited in Dave Chapelle’s Block Party…which would make Chris Eckart the equivalent of Lauren Hill).

    – little kon-el

  9. An honest question: Who is the literary equivalent of Jack Kirby? Is it Suzanne Collins, the Hunger Games writer? Or Stephen King in The Gunslinger Trilogy? I’m just curious about everyone’s thoughts.

  10. @gary: I’m not sure there IS a “literary equivalent” to Kirby… he’s such a primal, ur-force, you might have to go back not just to Homer but to whoever CREATED the myths Homer was finessing. But if you’re insisting on a comparison from a more recent era, I’d have to go with some kinda combo of E.E. “Doc” Smith and Olaf Stapledon — two SF writers little known to the mainstream, but whose vast, epic imaginings have been recycled by lesser geniuses ever since.

    And thanks for the enthusiastic 2001 tirade, Graeme…. I’ve read the Treasury Edition adaptation, but never got through all the single issues. Here’s hoping I have that pair of issues you mentioned in my rather haphazard collection… they should be the perfect follow-up to the 70mm print of Kubrick’s film, which I’m catching tonight!

  11. The talk of K-Box makes me want an actual panel or roundtable looking back at Fanboy Rampage!! Maybe it could be Graeme, Jeff, Rich Johnston, Alan David Doane, and Heidi MacDonald. A special edition of the podcast? Maybe this month next year, which will be the tenth anniversary (yes really) of when FB!! started.

  12. What’s the status of the 2001 Kirby comics? Why are they out of print? Does Marvel no longer have the rights to them? Do they have some of the rights but would have to fork over some token amount of money to whoever owns the rights to the film? Have they just not gotten around to it yet?

  13. If Jacking it for Graeme McMillan is wrong, then I don’t wanna be right.

  14. “What’s the status of the 2001 Kirby comics?”
    I don’t know the details, but based on the way these things usually go it’s most likely that Marvel have the copyright in the comics, but would have to reach an agreement with the rightsholders of the film and book to use the 2001 elements — which could be anywhere between very easy and impossible, depending on what they want.

  15. According to the DVD Warner Bros. owns the film rights to 2001. Clarke’s estate would still own the book’s copyright.

  16. Have you guys watched/talked about the Dredd movie yet? Did I miss/forget that episode?

  17. Traditionally, whoever owns the comic rights to a licensed property can reprint work done by other publishers – That’s how IDW has managed to do reprints of Marvel’s Transformers, GI Joe and Star Trek books, and Dark Horse reprints of Marvel’s Star Wars and Indiana Jones books. 2001 is a bit different, in that it includes the first appearance of Machine Man, who is clearly a Marvel character – I suspect its right situation is akin to the Micronauts one, wherein the characters/concepts that predated the comics are owned by the original rights owners, but the characters/concepts that were created for the comics are owned by Marvel – meaning that, unless MGM (or whoever owns MGM these days, I forget) signs with Marvel for some special edition reprint, we’ll probably never see their likes again. It’s a tragedy, these are some amazing comics. Hunt your back issue bins, people.

  18. @Matthew Murray: I still haven’t seen it, sadly. Time has been against me for awhile now.

  19. I just checked ebay and midtown comics, you can pick up all the issues of Kirby’s 2001 for 2 to 3 bucks a piece (maybe more for Machine Man’s first appearance.)

    The issues about the future sci-fi convention are some of my all time favorite comics, because they are some of the all time weirdest things that I’ve ever read. Of all time. It’s nice to hear this series getting some coverage. Joe McCulloch and Matt Seneca say a few words about it here: http://deathtotheuniverse.blogspot.com/2010/09/double-feature.html I first read Jon Morris’ words (sadly the pictures are gone) about the series here: http://gone-and-forgotten.blogspot.com/2007/09/classic-gone-and-forgotten-2001.html

    Is it weird that Fraction calls himself Thor-guy and not Casanova-guy?

  20. I’m the exact opposite of Graeme when it comes to Graham. I strongly disliked King City (though I do love a lot of the art in it of course), while I love Prophet. It truely hits my sweet spot.

  21. I believe the best way to enjoy Team America is with the bookends of Captain America #269 and Thing #27, wherein Thing joins Team America (by then renamed the Thunderiders).

    Yes, you could read New Mutants #5-6 in order to discover that Wolf, Reddy, and the gang are mutants but why would you want to do that?

  22. It’s funny that you guys are just checking out Englehart’s Dr. Strange, considering all the Englehart I’ve read because I’ve listened to the two of you (I’ve been listening since episode 8.something, and congrats on making it to 100!)

    I don’t know if I’m the only one who posted that I loved the Dr. Strange stuff, but I find it miles better than Englehart’s 70s Avengers run. That run over-balances the scale too much towards soap opera for me- I think Gerber is the one who gets the soap opera/super-hero action balance right, over in Defenders (which I also read because of your podcast discussions.)

    I’ve recently read Englehart’s West Coast Avengers (the first two collections, anyway) and I found that a much better balance of soap & super-hero, so again, thanks for that suggestion.

    And now I’ll have to hunt up those 2001 issues too– I have an odd issue or two around here somewhere….

  23. I’m another Beto fan – Palomar is, for my money, the best extended comic story ever. The emotional resonance builds slowly, and the characters take on extra dimensions organically. His art isn’t always pretty, but it is always well-executed. I like Jaime’s comics as well (and haven’t read New Stories yet) but they haven’t felt as rich as the Heartbreak Soup stories. That said, Jaime’s work is excellent and Gilbert’s non-Palomar/ Luba’s family comics can be hit or miss for me (and “Frida” remains my favorite comic book biography).

    ’70s Dr. Strange is my favorite Englehart series, and one of the only comics in which the art is on par with the writing (others being Detective with Marshall Rogers, maybe Avengers once Perez arrived, and… drawing a blank…). I read them in Essential Dr. Strange vol. 2 & 3, enjoyed them immensely, and felt almost depressed when I got to the issue after he left. “Occult History of America” could have been a spectacular swan song. Instead, it joins Big Numbers and the 4th World books on the “if only…” pile.

  24. It’s funny how people often seem to need to say which Hernandez Bro they prefer – it’s the same with cats and dogs. I like both! They’re totally different, but both phenomenal comic creators to my mind. Jaime’s work speaks to a very different part of my brain (actually, with his work it’s more of a ‘heart’ thing).

    I thought what Graeme was saying about the Kirby 2001 stuff, was fascinating; one artist with a very definite artistic vision tackling a work by another artist with a similarly strong, but totally different, vision. Only Kirby could taje a movie adaptation into such boldly weird territory…

  25. 2001 was already a fascinating conversation between two creators… Arthur C. Clarke’s fascinating collection THE LOST WORLDS OF 2001 brings together discarded versions of the story and “lost” chapters. It makes it evident how Kubrick was intentionally adding layers of obscurity and mysticism to Clarke’s mindblowing but straightforwardly expressed ideas. (And it also leaves you wondering if Kubrick’s drily banal presentation of the dialogue and flat characterizations were satirizing Clarke’s natural, button-down style.)

    As far as Marvel collections go…. I’m really left wondering why there’s never been a collection of Kirby’s MACHINE MAN, unless the concern is some kind of rights overlap with the 2001 materials. Certainly, they’ve collected everything else Kirby did in the 1970s, and they’ve put out other MACHINE MAN books. Why not this? Is the rights issue part of the reason why the character is now almost always called either “X-51″ or “Aaron Stack” instead of “Machine Man”?

  26. “Is the rights issue part of the reason why the character is now almost always called either “X-51″ or “Aaron Stack” instead of “Machine Man”?”
    Doubt it, because the other two names appear in the 2001 comic, one of them on the cover, and as far as I know ‘Machine Man’ doesn’t (he was ‘Mister Machine’ back then).

  27. The only comparison to Kirby I’d say is Lovecraft – someone who has such a massive following and influence in his field and is completely unknown to the mainstream. Of course, Superheroes dominate comics in a way that horror doesn’t literature, and their content and belief systems are almost the exact opposite.

  28. There’s no reason why Marvel couldn’t collect the ten issues of Kirby’s Machine Man run and leave out the three 2001 issues that introduced the character, except that the fist Mister Machine issue had a crucial scene that established Aaron Stack’s personality and subsequent characterization by Kirby–that he was raised by a human being AS a human, as his son, and that that prevented Aaron from having the destructive existential crises of his predecessors. Leaving the 2001 issues out of a collection wouldn’t really affect it in terms of plot, but it would leave out important character detail. I hope they do reprint the non-2001 Machine Man issues regardless, because they were awesome.

  29. Oh, wait…. here are the MACHINE MAN collections!

    http://www.heropress.co.uk/masterworks/mockups/premieres/pe_machineman__thelivingrobot_01a_mkux400.jpg

    http://www.heropress.co.uk/masterworks/mockups/premieres/pe_machineman__thelivingrobot_01b_mkux400.jpg

  30. Not really… but apparently part of the problem may be that Marvel doesn’t really control the MACHINE MAN trademark, since there was a pre-existing trademark for a robot toy manufactured by Rocket USA.

  31. Cant believe you guys didnt mention Mignola in your talk about creators being able to keep doing there thing for 20+ years.

  32. @Dan Coyle, you crack me up.

    @Graeme: Happy belated birthday, and we are still waiting for you to wikileak Jeff’s wish list…..

Leave a Reply


+ nine = 10