diflucan 2 doses

Wait, What? Ep. 50.2: In A Dark Woods

Jeff Lester


Picking up midway through our journey–more or less literally–it’s the conclusion to our fiftieth episode of Wait, What?! Graeme and I tackle subjects small and large, from Walking Dead to the shootings in Oslo, from Supergods to Amy Winehouse. Ambition; death; Outbreak; Haywire.

It’s an unconventional wrap-up to our less-than-conventional milestone episode and in some ways is more than a little bit of a downer — we thought it would be an excellent idea to tell you now. It’s probably shown its face on iTunes or you can hold a compact mirror up to it here:

Wait, What? Ep. 50.2: In A Dark Wood

As always, we hope this is a thing that you enjoy even when one of us (not to name any names…in part because he’s writing this entry) drags things into the less cheerful side of things.  We humbly thank you for listening and are here with us for the next fifty!

34 Responses to “ Wait, What? Ep. 50.2: In A Dark Woods ”

  1. Re: Soderbergh – I think it’s a bit interesting that Soderbergh’s course seems to be results oriented in that he is looking for a certain quality regardless of acting chops. Maybe it’s a reality brought to his movies by placing a character with real life credentials in among the hyper-reality of movie stars.

    I haven’t seen the “Girlfriend Experiment” (I know, right?) but this would seem to fall right in line thematically.

    I did not realize she was an American Gladiator…

  2. Experience…shit.

  3. You talk about Warren Ellis’ Supergod? Yah! Oh, wait…you talk about Grant Morrison’s Supergods. Yah! Either one would be awesome to listen to folk discuss!

  4. Hate to be a pest… the itunes download isn’t working for me. Is it just me?

  5. Thanks for the warning on this being a downer – you kept your word. It’s understandable given the current environment, and if one reads the musings of Alan Moore, who apparently doesn’t think our current culture is producing anything (although it’s unclear how he supports this opinion when he also admits he doesn’t expose himself to our current culture – always good to have a supportable opinion!).

    It’s also sad that as much as people on the internet think it, Grant Morrison is never going to turn in to Jesus and save us from their perception of comic mediocrity. Sad or kind of funny I guess.

    I think creators are going more corporate/establishment because they see more money and security in it, and with the way the world is going it’s kind of understandable. Also, Morrison did edgy and new with the Invisibles and the Flith. And he did try and add something to the mythology, it just wasn’t widely accepted and may be perceived as a failure (Aztec). Perhaps he is writing Superman and Batman comics because he likes it, he’s good at it and why the hell not?

    I think you guys will feel better if you read more comics, because it’s pretty much the cure all.

    I’m in the middle of reading Martha Washington in the 21st century and have to tell you I highly recommend it. David Gibbons art in part 1 is fantastic. So what if Miller completes rips off Ayn Rand in part 2? He admits it and it’s still damn entertaining. And what more can you ask for than that?

    I also just read the latest issue of Venom. I hate admitting it because nothing gives off more bad ’90s vibe than Venom, but it’s a pretty great comic. This issue appealed to me on a personal level but the page where Flash Thompson breaks down at the end could pretty much melt anyone’s heart.

    The end of Secret Six was okay, kind of expected her to go all Butch Cassady and the Sundance Kid in the end. And of course they had to set-up Bane for the Dark Knight Rises.

    I guess I will stay positive for as long as I am still entertained. Sure I get pissed when I dropped a lot of money on Plague of Frogs omnibus 1 and find it average at best or when DC cancels my comics but that will always happen.

  6. @Murray: Actually, less like a “pest” and more like a “lifesaver”: I updated the RSS feed two days ago (or even three days ago, I think?) but forgot to upload it to the server yesterday…so depending on how fast iTunes picks up the change, it should be available by tomorrow morning at the latest.

    George: Thanks for your sterling advice–I think I need to branch out a bit and try something relatively low-stakes like Venom.

    David: I think you’ve pulled for us to try Ellis’ Supergod previously, yah? I’ll have to make it a point to try it….

    J_Smitty: At my most cynical, I worry that Soderbergh fetishizes the filmmaking techniques of the late ’60s/early ’70s — with using non-professional actors in leading roles being very much a thing from that time and place (although usually with musicians like Jagger, Garfunkel, Lennon, etc.) — without much regard for whether it actually *works* or not. But that may be because I feel like Soderbergh keeps worshipping at the temple of Richard Lester without really getting any of the stuff I appreciate out of Lester’s work…

  7. Hey now, rainy face!

    Here’s how we used to deal with depressing stuff back in the ’70s:


    I’m going to watch that on a perpetual loop to fortify myself until itunes updates itself. Best to you both.

  8. Wow, that was slit-your-wrists fantastic, guys! A+

  9. Currently downloading from the link here, so I can listen at work tonight. From the comments, do i take that you have abandoned your mirth?

    I will happily second the suggestion your try Ellis’ Supergod. It was right up my alley in terms of crazy ideas & stuff.

    @ George- sorry to hear you were disappointed in the first BPRD omnibus, as I really like the series as a whole. The problem I see with the first omnibus is that the BPRD series started as a series of one-shots without an overall story, and as I recall, those one-shots were pretty uneven.
    If I were to suggest BPRD to anyone, I’d say start with volume 3 (which I think is in the first omnibus.) That’s where the Guy Davis art and the overall story really starts. If you liked that part of the omnibus I’d say stick with the series, though I do agree that the omnibus series as a whole is a rather expensive way to go. Maybe find a library that has the next volume?

  10. Jeff-

    I’ve actually been experiencing ocular migraines lately, 3 in the last year and none prior to that. No actual headache, but weird (temporary) vision problems.

    Any advice? (I guess you have my email, feel free to move this discussion off of the comments if you prefer.)

  11. I’ll comment more on the podcast once I listen to it, but I just wanted to drop you guys a line to let you know that the DC Retroactive 1980s Flash was a really really fun comic that made me miss the Wally West Flash. Both stories fit quite nicely into the chronology of the Messer-Loeb Flash and it strangely comments on the comments you guys made a while back about how the Rogues were really interesting when they were sort of job-less after the death of Barry. I’d love to see a Flash Retroactive 1990s, but I really doubt Mark Waid will want to have a go at writing it.

    – l.k.

  12. @Mike: Actually, since I’m not even close to a doctor or anything and since what I have to offer is basically anecdotal stuff, I’m going to reply to you here in the comments so you might get somebody more sensible or capable responding as well.

    So, right. Ocular migraines. My understanding of the migraine deal is, there are triggers that can set them off and you may have hit a stage where you’ve got one (or more) things setting off your migraines.

    For me, it was a three-fold deal any you should see if any of this fit your situation: caffeine, weight, and exercise — all of which I was probably pushing my upper limit of at the same time. Because I weighed too much, I was doing really strenuous exercise workouts, and I was also nursing a pretty heavy Diet Coke habit. My most reliable way to trigger one of those babies was to work out really hard and then wait half an hour or so. But I also had situations where I had them and exercise wasn’t directly involved.

    For me, the solution was to work out more often and take it easier on myself (rather than push myself hard two or three times a week) and cut back on my caffeine. Then after a certain point, I lost more weight and was able to up the caffeine a bit.

    Currently, my caffeine intake is super-limited (maybe a coke zero every other week?), I’m approximately 25-30 pounds lighter, but I’m back to working out only twice a week (which I should change). I haven’t had a migraine in about four years now.

    So…that’s what worked for me? Not sure how it’ll line up with where you’re at, but I hope it helps.

  13. Warren Ellis sold out so hard he should be an additional definition in Webster’s of the term.

  14. I’ll second the love for the Flash Retroactive special. It’s awesome! If you liked any part of what Messner-Loebs and Laroque did in the eighties, this book will take you right back there. It really is good good good. I’m thinking the 90s book is going to be good, too. It’s not done by Waid, but if I’m remembering correctly, it is being written by Brian Augustyn and since he was pretty involved in that era of the Flash, I’m looking forward to it.

  15. @Mr. Dan Coyle, I would not say Warren Ellis ever “sold out”. I would admit he does mainstream stuff that isn’t always his best to help pay the bills so he can do the much more awesome things like his Avatar-comics sorta-trilogy of Black Summer, No Hero, and Supergod.

    @ Mr. Jeff Lester, I’m happy to have inspired you guys to read a book as I really love listening to you guys and hope someday to have my own podcast be half as entertaining or get more than 5 listeners. I think Supergod will be out in trade soon, FYI. If you read Supergod it is sort of best to also read the aforementioned Black Summer and No Hero too as there is a slight thematic link of, “Super Heroes will screw you over” running through all the comics and they came out first.

  16. David: you must be too young to remember what he was like, then.

  17. You mean Transmet? Or even further back? I admit to being younger (23) but try and go back and read old stuff.

  18. @BDmontgomery: Thanks for the input. The way that Dark Horse packaged it doesn’t seem that clever. I like Guy Davis though so may need to find a creative/cheap way to read volume 2. I’m not sure if my local library stock comics I will need to check.

  19. YES! Your discussion of Millar! Yes. I don’t understand the conversation around Mark Millar because it hasn’t changed in the last, oh, 5 years, even though it SHOULD have.

    Because his dubious merits as a writer aside– Mark Millar is the guy who WON.

    I feel like people still focus on the “dubious merits” or the “annoying liar” aspects of him even though those have become the least, least interesting things about the guy.

    Mark Millar’s the one who actually did what I thought you were supposed to, which is work at these big companies, develop an audience, and then take them to creator owned work and profit thereby. And it’s not like he’s coasted– starting comic conventions, starting that magazine… These aren’t the Xeric grant maybe but they’re something, and my gut at least says you wouldn’t see other people doing those things. You don’t see Frank Miller doing those things, say, though the circumstances there are different perhaps…

    (It was never going to be Ellis– even setting aside all the reasons why creatively, he couldn’t talk to the people who wanted to be his fans the way Millar could…)

    It’s not even that no one else pulled it off– I don’t even feel like anyone else even really tried until he hit. (And I’m not really a fan of it when they do, granted– I sure don’t want to read Incognito or whatever, when I could read Criminal instead, but…)

    Comics has this weird thing of minimizing the risks that its most successful people have taken. You know: there are people who pretend what the Image guys did wasn’t anything when there was actual risks they took in putting out those books initially, at the height of their popularity. I think you see that when people talk about Jim Lee, at least– he went out and earned his success, and I think people minimize it with Lee, and I think you see that happening now with Millar.

    Do I want to read his comics? No. But … He’s the one who turned out to be Stan Lee, with all the self-promotion and silliness and maybe bodies on the road that implies, sure, but also maybe someday with the pop culture cache, too… Sure, he’s too much of a B.S. artist shlock-artist douchebag to *admire* perhaps, but … It’s just besides the point with every day…

    (This conversation is, like, the thing I think about the most with re: comics for the last ZILLION years, because I’m always in the fan base that gets walked away from– I’m the audience that you run away from when you get a mainstream book…)

    There’s Hickman, though– I haven’t really liked reading his stuff yet but there’s signs of life there, lately, I guess…

  20. Can’t sleep. Maybe apropos to what you were saying, this bit from the Steve Gerber TCJ interview popped into my head–

    “Another thing Gil [Kane] said — to use this as a kind of jumping-off point — where I think he’s really wrong, is that the writers in comics are writing comics because they can’t write anything else. Again, I have to say that in a lot of cases, that’s true, but I don’t think the real story will be told for another 10 years or so. Watch what I, Wein, Wolfman, Conway and the rest of the current bunch — Doug Moench and Don McGregor and so on — look at what we’re doing 10 years from now, and then we’ll know the score. I think it’s too early right now for the final tally. But some of us, certainly, have been working in comics because we like the medium.”

    I’m not sure if that quote is entirely germane, but I think it might be…

  21. @ Jeff: I am still getting an error that “Wait, What is not a valid podcast. Please check that you have entered the URL correctly and try again” through iTunes.

    I thought you’d want to know.

  22. I’m getting the same error as John S. I’ve downloaded it manually from here, but folks listening to the podcast via iTunes subscription aren’t getting it.

  23. @John S and @Adam: Thanks for the head’s up you guys–I knew the podcast wasn’t updating through iTunes, but didn’t know there was such a drastic error message. I just tried pruning back the number of entries on the RSS feed and reloaded it, so I might have a better idea if it’s working by tomorrow. If not, I’m going to have totally strip down the last few entries and rebuild it.

    Thanks for the head’s up and I’m hoping to have it fixed by Monday (how I miss the days when I could manually ping the feed to reload on iTunes!)

  24. Y’know, I really liked this episode but it highlighted to me something that I think you guys should tackle in a future episode: The Claremont effect.

    Chis Claremont’s run on X-Men seems to have influenced Alan Moore (based on the Capt. Britain run), Grant Morrison (especially in his Doom Patrol where he actually shows the Claremont troopes right before he buries it with a fridge), Jim Lee (his WildCATs really do read like Claremont’s bad-ass language cadence), and probably a bunch of other creators (like James Robinson or Neil Gaiman) that I can’t seem to think of right now.

    There is something to his wordiness and verbose nature that appealed to me when I was younger, but feels sooo plotting once you get to his DC Soverign Seven work. And, of course, there’s the weird sex rumors about Claremont and fetish and Mowhawked Storm at S&M clubs in the early 80s taht I wouldn’t mind seeing you guys riffing on for a while.

    Here’s a really strange interview from Claremont from 2009 at the MIT Comparative Media Studies where he discusses his methodology. I call this interview strange because you really get a sense of how old Claremont is because his talking cadence makes him sound like Old Man Claremont. It is worth listening to if only to see what he takes credit for in designing the X-Men.


  25. Hey Jeff. It’s fixed! I am downloading now.

  26. @John S: Oh, thank god. Thanks for letting me know!

    @gary a: Yeah, I think a big ol’ Claremont retrospective is overdue. He is, by far, the most successful superhero comics writer of his generation. I’ve often wondered if that success stems from the idea that his narrative voice was closest naturally to the Stan Lee marvel style that was required of Marvel writers in the ’70s and so was most able to use it without getting tired of it…and also transition smoothly from that voice to his own.

    @Abhay: That Gerber quote has haunted me for a while (as has Englehart’s interview where he brags about conquering comics and moving on to novels…which didn’t really pan out for him for another thirty years or so), as a lot of those guys moved from comics to…where? Animation and video games? (Like comics, non-union work on other people’s IP) Before returning to comics?

    The fact that Gerber died hacking it out for DC hangs over that quote for me. The number of dudes who’ve made it out–really and truly made it out and choosing to return on their own terms and when it suits them–is really small, especially considering how far other aspects of the industry has come in thirty years…

  27. @Jeff Lester: I’d be interested, in a side note, some sort of inclusion of Marv Wolfman as the competing voice. They both did 70s marvel comics, they both had competing team books in the 80s, and they both burnt out in the 90s. But I’ve been looking at their styles and both are very close together. And both used to dictate the shots at their respective companies, but now can no longer hold a job in either company for long. I mean, how do you do that? How do you build up an industry for so long and then just lose it completely?

  28. He was right about Conway, at least. Glass half full.

  29. Is it possible to do a podcast with Abhay about this stuff?

  30. @gary a
    “I mean, how do you do that? How do you build up an industry for so long and then just lose it completely?”

    This once again brings to mind that the best parallel between comics and other media isn’t books, cinema or television but popular music (be it pop, rock or whatever). In both milieus, people come along who are astoundingly popular for relatively short periods of time, sometimes in partnerships with others, before either imploding; going in directions their fans disapprove of; sticking too long to a formula that goes out of style; or simply ‘losing it.”

    On occasion their may be a talent that lasts well beyond the average life span of a creator, but these may be few and far between (the Bob Dylan’s, Neil Youngs, David Bowies, Robert Crumbs, Love and Rockets or Alan Moores of the world).

    And in both industries the maxim “We preferred your earlier work” seems to be a favourite complaint.

    Which leads me to my opinion that Moore’s latest, The League Of Extraordinary Gentlemen: Century 1969, resembles nothing more nor less than an over-bloated 70’s concept album. Which leaves us with the question, is it Genesis The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway or Wakeman’s The Myths and Legends of King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table (On Ice)?

  31. @Carey

    I think I’d take it even one step further in saying that the best comics parallel is musical theater. Claremont is Andrew Lloyd Webber while Stan Lee and Jack Kirby are Gilbert and Sullivan.

    Personally, I’d like to think that Moore is Pete Townshend writing Iron Man: the Musical.

  32. So now that I’ve listened to it, I’d love to throw out Neil Gaiman and Peter David as guys who were initially comics guys, but who have found success in other media.

    Also, now that you’ve talked about Haywire the movie, how about a look back at the awesome Haywire series from the ’80s, which kind of felt like a Mark Millar comic done right.

  33. I think Morrison is still making fantastic and revolutionary comics, and if that’s all he ends up doing, I really don’t mind.

  34. I have been having the same dilemma with reading news or Twitter or Facebook. There does seem to be a part of this interconnected age that leads to a bit of constant concern. I really liked Graeme’s point that it is so easy to send a message to someone on Twitter to show your concern while not really doing anything that takes a lot of effort.

    I’m really interested to see if there is any correlation between this concern and superhero reading. Since we read a lot of stories about heroes who seem to have no concerns regarding their own well-being to help out those who are troubled, maybe that has affected us. Either way, I have to read less news.

    And maybe I’ll wait until Supergods comes out in paperback after an edit…

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