diflucan 2 doses

Wait, What? Ep. 69: First In Twelve

Jeff Lester


It’s 2012 and it’s time for Wait, What? Ep. 69, the podcast that’s not nearly as good at replying in its comment threads as it probably should be!

Graeme and I decided to do this all in one since the majority of the response we got were either indifferent to the process or preferred the longer podcasts that allow our tendencies to ramble to eventually get to some kind of point. Do you disagree? Prefer two one+ hour ‘casts to one two+ hour one? Want them even shorter? Wouldn’t mind them even longer? Let us know your thoughts either in the comments thread here or over at waitwhatpodcast AT gmail.com.

And while you’re doing so, check out Episode 69, in which the charming Mr. McMillan and the chatty Mr. McMe discuss Christmas presents, ethical dilemmas, Daredevil #7, The first part of Batman: Leviathan Strikes, the fourth issues of Justice League, Wonder Woman, and Batman #4, Tales Designed to Thrizzle, Pope Hats by Ethan Rilly, The Annotated Sandman, and the insanity that is Crying Freeman. It’s all in good fun, and almost no one gets hurt!

Choosy mothers may have chosen iTunes, but mothers of invention are more than welcome to let their freak flag unfurl and listen to us below:

Wait, What? Ep. 69: First In Twelve

As ever, we  hope you enjoy and thank you for listening!

34 Responses to “ Wait, What? Ep. 69: First In Twelve ”

  1. Okay. I didn’t sign the Alan Moore/Watchmen petition, because I didn’t fully agree with everything in it, but I did read it carefully and I know the guy who started it and I understand his position on it. To call this “fanboy entitlement” is extremely unfair. Feel free to agree or disagree with his position, and feel free to think Change.org is the wrong platform for it (though that sounds an awful lot like a pointless derailing argument to me), but if you’re going to comment on it, at the very least pay attention to what the petition said and try to do it justice.

    That petition is the opposite of fanboy entitlement. Entitlement in this case would be someone arguing that there shouldn’t be any derivative works from Watchmen because the book itself is a perfect masterpiece and can’t be improved upon and trying to make extra money from it is blasphemy. That’s the kind of emotional, disconnected-from-reality arguments that entitled fanboys make.

    What the petition actually says is that although it’s legal for DC to publish the prequels, it’s ethically questionable. Fanboy entitlement arguments aren’t usually based on ethics.

    Again, to be clear, I’m not even saying that I agree with the petition. I just think Graeme sounds like he hasn’t even bothered to read it, in which case he probably shouldn’t be whining about it on the podcast.

  2. It, apparently, is also the kind of argument that a majority of the first 3 pages of commenters are making by signing the petition. Those comments are rife with that very emotional, disconnected from reality argument.

    The argument about creator rights is valid only from the perspective that Watchmen is such an unbelievable outlier of a product that it eventually revolutionized the business and in many ways was responsible for the development of creator owned imprints and so on.

    To say that retroactively Watchmen gets a do-over is the height of the “emotional appeal.” Sometimes, great works are just grist in the mill of society. That sucks but it’s the truth.

    As long as people sign a contract they’ve said in print, “This agreement IS, in fact, legal and ethical to my eyes.” It’s the whole point of contracts! In a more famous example, think about all the things that George Lucas made sure were included in his initial contract for Star Wars. The writing was on the wall that sequel rights, merchandising, and intellectual property at large should have been on the table for creative types to fight for.

    Agree or disagree?

  3. I hasten to add that I will not buy any sequels or products derived from said work but that is exercising my rights, available exclusively to me.

  4. Talking of Grant Morrison having his cake and critiquing it..


  5. I think you should do a marathon 24-hour long podcast!



    It seems kind of fair: a 2.99 issue plus an oversized (about 30 pages of Burnham?) 3.99 issue and tons of useless stuff following.

  7. I should know better than this but I haven’t listened to the ‘cast yet but…

    Isn’t fanboy entitlement where you get: “Stuff Alan Moore, stuff Alan Moore and the disgraceful treatment of said man by DC Comics, stuff the fact that just accepting that treatment allows them to go on doing it again and again, stuff the fact that if they sorted out how to treat creators ethically and equitably their IPs might be in such a healthy state that a short term sales spike from a property from !*the 1980s*! wouldn’t be necessary, stuff all that and give me my Nite Owl comics by JMS and Darwyn Cooke!”

    I think I need “fanboy entitlement” defining here, please. Y’know, before I make a fool of myself.

    It is 2013 and the dollar bins are full of Watchmen 2 comics. It is 2013 and Alan Moore is being asked about Watchmen again. It is 2013 and Alan Moore fears his eyes will never stop rolling.

  8. Haven’t listened to the episode yet, but reading the blurb, my vote goes to the longest podcast you can make without it becoming boring for you. I listen to these podcasts when I exercise, and honestly I lose motivation if there’s nothing fun playing in the background – music doesn’t do it for me.

    Really what I’m saying is that the physical fitness and overall health of what must be countless Americans turns on the length of this podcast, so no pressure or anything.

  9. Sorry. I feel silly for disagreeing but I prefer it split up? It gives me something to look forward to later in the week. (And yes, sadly, the self-control needed to simply, you know, actually stop listening halfway through just isn’t there.)

  10. Several observations:

    1) The ever charming Mr. McMillan no longer sounds like he’s broadcasting from inside a toilet bowl. Now all he needs is an umbrella. You know, those things you use to keep you dry when it’s raining out? Ask around Portland, I’m sure someone there sells them. Welcome to the future Graeme.

    2) I just listened to a comic book podcast wherein the pod casters purport to review comics that at least one of them (and in some cases, both of them) never have actually gotten around to reading. It shouldn’t work, but somehow weirdly enough, still does.

    3) “Batman Inc.: Leviathan Strikes” priced at $6.99 is not too bad of a deal. I agree with Richard Baez that individually the issues would have been priced at $2.99 each. For 99 more pennies you get a longer Chris Burnham story, a card stock cover, and useless shit in the back. Marvel would have charged no less than $8.99 and it wouldn’t have been half as entertaining.

    4) Batman Inc. going forward is going to try to walk a fine line by bringing the storyline to the NU52. In case you haven’t read it, there’s a pretty good interview with Burnham here:


    According to Burnham, the hope is that no one really pays too close attention to the continuity (or lack thereof): “I think it’s hopefully going to dodge the question of the weird continuity problems. Hopefully we’ll be able to dodge that entirely. [Laugher] So when Grant’s full Batman run is completely done, you’ll be able to read it all from start to finish and the “Flashpoint” thing won’t even register. That’s my hope.”

    5) Speaking of the NU52, I’m with you Jeff on Demon Knights losing my interest. Same with Frankenstein. Justice League is slowly losing me (the latest issue made me weirdly nostalgic for issue 1). Darkseid’s appearance fell flat because there wasn’t enough of a build up. It feels rushed. Remember when Kirby slowly built up the menace surrounding Darkseid? Here, he seems like the generic bad guy of the month. Justice League Dark isn’t as fun and crazy as it should be. Stormwatch is a mess. The number of NU52 books that I continue to buy can be counted on one hand.

    6) How about a “Wait, What?” podcast “greatest hits” c.d. box set? I’d pay good money for that.

    7) Thanks for ignoring my suggestion you keep the podcast divided into two separate shorter listening nuggets of gold. I’m actually being sincere. This works better, since I can stop the podcast and pick up where I left off at my leisure.


  11. What John K(UK) said! I like that guy…he should get his own column! ^_^

  12. That’s strange that you say you read Batman: Hush because you’re a Batman fan. Usually the bigger fan I am of a character, that makes me ESPECIALLY averse to reading a Jeph Loeb take on said character.

  13. Better answer while I’m thinking about the length-of-podcast question that you asked like two weeks ago: whatever format you guys feel like is fine with me. I don’t care (well, as long as I can hear it). Thank you for the many hours of free entertainment, dudes.

  14. When you do make the ‘Wait, What’ theme song, you need to sample Graeme’s reaction to Jeff’s initial description of Crying Freemon where he goes ‘wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait,…… what?!’

    You’re welcome.

  15. On the podcast length, I was originally ok with whatever you wanted to do, but I now find I’m agreeing with richmond_Pope-
    when the podcast downloads it goes to the top of the queue, NOW. Only having one this week is leaving me with some kind of withdrawal.

    Which I’d guess means you guys are doing something right.

    But I still vote for breaking it into two.

  16. Thanks for your thoughtful comments about “Annotated Sandman.” I’m a great admirer of Jess Nevins’s work too, but this volume is intended to combine his depth of research with the original text. It was very important to me that the book be accessible, having the notes adjacent to the relevant panels. I certainly agree that it would have been preferable to reproduce the pages in color, but that would have doubled the cost and made the entire project impractical.

    BTW, while Neil Gaiman didn’t “write” the annotations, a great deal of the notes consists of his comments as set forth in the scripts, so you’re getting his own thoughts here, not just mine!

  17. Haven’t listened to this ‘cast yet, but to weigh in on the “Length” debate: I like ’em closer to one hour, i.e. if it’s going to be two hours or thereabouts, I’d rather it be split. On other format related topics, I really dig the cold open if there’s an appropriate one, I’d like Graeme to read more comics with Wolverine in them for his dramatic interpretations, and I think you should seek out Waffle Window as a sponsor and write your own commercials for them.

  18. Seconding the request for more of Graeme’s Wolverine dramatic readings

    Also I find it odd that you guys preferred Daredevil #7 over Daredevil #6. I thought that #7 was a bit dull and was short on new ideas (though I absolutely love the ‘Im not Daredevil’ jumper) where #6 introduced a Lucador sponsored by all the evil organizations who life’s goal is to fight the Hulk but hes making his way up the superhero ladder. Also #6 had actually had a fight scene and a twist.
    However this could have something do with the fact its the middle of summer down here in Australia and Ive only seen snow about 5 times ever in my life :\
    Oh well, different strokes for different folks.

  19. I think the love for DD 7 is deserved. I try not to think in terms of ranks for a run. This issue or that issue but I liked this because it A) Had some very unique stakes. B) Showed DD out of his traditional element. It was a breather issue but still had real weight.

    People could learn a lot from this when structuring a series.


    I don’t know if that’s how it will continue but a formal leader like Waid (with the rotating art team set-up) could really nail it.

  20. I think what Waid does well (and Geoff Johns sort of tries to imitate) is to revitalize good characters with long histories that have fallen off. Waid’s Flash, Captain America, and now his Daredevil shows why these character’s histories make interesting characters. That’s what depresses me most about the nuDCU: Mark Waid can’t do something like the Flash anymore. It makes sense how he was inched off of Brave and the Bold to make way for a history-less DC.

    – l.k.

  21. As for the Sandman annotations, I believe the art is in that way because that’s the original Sandman art. Gaiman was trying to get all of the original art from the Sandman issues to scan for the annotations a while back and it looks like he was able to scan it all.

    But for my money, the annotated Sandman companion works better, if only because it was done as an interview with Gaiman and it was done right at the end of his series, so it was fresh in his mind when he gave that interview. I’m not sure if they’re just re-purposing the original annotated Sandman or if this is a new one, but the annotated sandman companion should be much cheaper and more informative.

  22. Good god…last post but I totally blanked for a minute while listening to your podcast and I thought you were talking about Grant Morrison’s Batman Leviathan but really you were explaining Crying Freeman.

    I believe that juxtaposition really made my day.

  23. More on my hobby horse / direct digital distribution model – this time from Peter David.


    And now, it’s time for a quick get-to-know-you question that we like to call “Behind the X.” I’ve read a bit about your publishing adventures with Crazy 8 Press, but I’d love to hear more. For those readers who are unaware, could you tell them what it is and any plans for 2012?

    (In addition to “X-Factor,” David continues to write other comics, animation and prose novels)

    ‘I should emphasize that Crazy 8 Press isn’t actually a publishing company. What it is, basically, is the brainchild of writer and friend Mike Friedman who — seeing the changing terrain and the explosion of ebooks — suggested that a group of us start publishing our own novels directly through such venues as Amazon and Barnes & Noble. This way we keep the rights, we set the prices, etc.

    Crazy 8 doesn’t actually exist as a business; we each put out own novels through our respective corporations. Instead what we’re doing is pooling our social media resources so we can let each other’s audience know when we have books coming out. The full list of titles currently available can be found at our website at http://www.crazy8press.com. We led off with a new title from me, “The Camelot Papers,” which is available for Kindle or Nook and also as a trade paperback, all of which can be ordered online. (You won’t find them in book stores. Hell, these days it’s hard enough to find book stores.) In addition to titles from me and Mike, you can also find work from Bob Greenberger, Aaron Rosenberg, Howard Weinstein and Glenn Hauman (of Comicmix).’

    So, proof of concept?

  24. Wow, cool comment thread!

    I just checked out Mr. Klinger’s website and he’s written some pretty cool books. I’ll definitely be picking a few up.

    Daredevil is a kick ass awesome comic. It’s the only monthly book I make a point of getting. Superheroes can be fun when done well!

  25. Guys like Mike Bunge and T. really need their own blogs.

    Here’s an easy guide to Jeph Loeb: like all screenwriters who honed their craft during the 80s, he thinks his audience are all fucking morons who doesn’t deserve anything better than having shiny keyes waved at them every six to twelve issues. Combine that with a lavish, sneering fanboyism that declares anything past the way things were when he was a kid EXCEPT what he’s doing now null and void, and…

    Wow, this is taking up a lot of time. In short, as a person he may be a nice guy, but as a creative force, he’s an immature, lazy, childish asshole.

  26. Graeme, the audio on your end sounds so much better that I almost bought a new computer just to post this comment.

    So long, echo chamber. (It feels a bit silly, but I’m genuinely happy for you and your computer purchase.)

  27. And with the magick spell of summoning that is “Nicol Williamson” I ride to you on The Dragon’s Breath! Issue 4 of DEMON KNIGHTS was more enjoyable than previous issues for exactly the reasons Mr. Lester states. That is: Merlin! I still think it smelled of fill-in but it tasted of Merlin so I liked it just fine.

    That series, though. I was going to go on about it at length but I’ll do it here in brief instead. I *really* want to like that book but it’s just too diffuse. There’s just a total failure of focus, it just bounces from one character to the next before you’ve got any real idea who anyone is or what they want. A couple of them have died but…eh, I can barely remember who they were never mind care. It took about three issues before I realised this was some kind of Seven Samurai siege deal and I can’t put that down totally to my failing mind. Clarity counts sometimes.

    I totally agree with Mr. Lester that democracy is exhausting. I think it was one of you Colonials who said something about the price of freedom being eternal vigilance. He wasn’t wrong was he? He just forgot to mention that it really takes it out of a fella. Was it Batman? I bet Batman said it.

    As for Mr. McMillan’s Watchmen 2 argument, well, I didn’t find that convincing I’m afraid. It was a bit like when my sister asked me if I’d be indulging (because losing a day’s pay and flexi is just like a holiday!)in strike action at the tail end of 2011 and when I said yes she said, “But why, Johnny? It won’t change anything!” And I roared “That’s the spirit! That’s what’ll see humanity through!” I mean I quite like my sister but she wasn’t convincing either. (And no one else gets to call me “Johnny”, okay?) Sometimes it doesn’t matter where you draw the line what matters is that you’ve drawn that line. Personally I could do without thinking about all this ethical pish (I’m not good at it)perhaps if the comics industry could just sort itself out a bit I could just be a nice pliant consumer like I want to be. I just want to read my comics!

    Although I am glad Mr. McMillan has a new PC I am disappointed he no longer sounds like he is down a pit. I was hoping to convince Mr. Lester to open his podcast by hissing “It rubs the lotion on its skin! Or else it gets the hose again!” at a bemused Mr. McMillan.

    I prefer a split into two podcasts because it is easier to remember what I am commenting on but I am okay with any podcast because any podcast from Messrs Lester and McMillan is good podcasting!


  28. I’ll echo the Demon Knights disappointment for the reasons J & J have already explained, and which I’ve commented on myself in other threads (usually Hibbs’s ‘shipping this week’ thread). Next week I’ll be flipping through it with a ‘convince me to buy you’ eye. If it doesn’t lend some dramatic clarity I’m going to bail…

    I’ll be flipping through Flash with the same attitude next month, sorry to say.

    Comics! Sometimes you try to like them but they just won’t cooperate!

  29. Not to bust your chops, Jeff… but is it really a boycott if the books that you aren’t buying anymore are being dropped because either
    a) they’re being cancelled or
    b) the creative team is new and chasing you away?
    Isn’t that more an example of Marvel boycotting you?

    As for Watchmen 2… read it or don’t (I probably will if I think the story is worth it), but I like J Smitty’s argument that Moore could have negotiated a different contract in the very beginning. The fact that DC is sticking to the contract that everyone agreed to isn’t really all that unethical. I like the example that George Lucas managed to craft a super tight contract with his unknown property (Star Wars). I’d add that Bob Kane did the same thing with his Batman contract about 40 years before Watchmen was even a glimmer in anyone’s eye.

  30. Wait, wait…we’re using Bob Kane as the bar for ethical contract negotiation? Yikes.

  31. The new Tales Designed to Thrizzle is really, really funny– it’s a really great issue. Plus, a Julie Klausner cameo!

    Also: Batman is half pretty good and half junk, as set forth in the podcast. I tried to read the Marvel Age section of it– I didn’t understand any of the recap and it was recapping comics I’d read. I read those comics, and I had no idea what it was talking about. Was that what I was reading this whole time? It seemed like it made sense at the time but it was just indecipherable to me…

    In Conclusion: I have a head cold and the new issue of Flash is the only thing good in this miserable world. I like the Flash because he’s really fast but he also likes to brag about being really fast. He’s constantly bragging about being the Flash. None of the other superheros do that, and I don’t know why because that’s really awesome.

  32. Jeff, I’m with you on the Marvel boycott in pretty much every way. I WANT to drop all my Marvel titles until they get their shit together, but I also want to support good comics – and DAREDEVIL and UNCANNY X-FORCE are some of the best comics going right now, so I’m buying them (along with a couple of mini-series I was picking up before I dropped out of marvel I’m finishing out of OCD).

    But damn it all to hell if WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN isn’t kicking all sorts of ass.

    I guess it comes down to which side you would rather be on – boycott completely and damn the torpedoes, or support capital-G GOOD Comics, even if it means giving Marvel your money for them. In the end, which is better for the industry? And even more importantly, which one will help you sleep at night?

  33. You know what helps me sleep at night? Ambien.

  34. Two more things:

    1. It’s not the length of the podcast, but what you do with the podcast that really matters.

    2. I was kind of shocked by your comments about Wonder Woman. Now I should mention that I’m not reading WW, and I haven’t read enough WW to know her history, and I don’t own any WW comics, nor have I at any time, BUT I was pretty surprised to hear you say that the the new Wonder Woman comics weren’t entirely working for you because they weren’t acknowledging what came before them. Because that was the alleged purpose of the re-boot, right? You don’t have to know what came before these new Wonder Woman comics, it’s all new and you can forget about the last 70 years of her history.

    I guess this is a problem for this character because the revamped origin has happened a few times in recent history (or so I gather from what you were saying), but this really speaks volumes about the “new” 52, doesn’t it? You don’t have to know the characters history to jump on to these books, but if you DO know the history it might create some problems for you, and if you DON’T know the history you’re still going to be a little confused.


Leave a Reply

Time limit is exhausted. Please reload CAPTCHA.