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Wait, What? Ep. 82: The Problem With Problems


Hola, chicos!

The above image is from Dave Sim’s Glamourpuss #24, just one of many fine comic book hoohahs under discussion in episode 82 of the latest podcast from the brilliant (but presently ill!) Graeme McMillan and the generally slow-on-the-uptake (but mostly healthy!) yours truly.

I gotta say, we pretty much drove right in on this one, and ended up talking Action Comics #8 in the first three minutes of this two hour twenty-five minute blabapalooza, and also managed to hit topics like OMAC #8, the colorization of  Scott Pilgrim, the battles behind the TV show Community, a great blog post by Steve K. about the state of the comics Internet, Casanova #3, Supreme #20, Fatale #4, Strike Force Morituri, and that stunning issue of Glamourpuss mentioned above.

Also!  We have the first (and hopefully last) installment of Listen to Jackass, in which I respond to blog posts I haven’t even read yet! It’s a bit like that old Johnny Carson ‘Carnac The Magnificent’ sketch, except instead of cheap laughs it kinda goes more for the “feeling ashamed for Jeff and, in a way, the whole human race” kind of feeling.

iTunes?  Well, of course!  But also right here and now, ready to be cradled like a baby bird that has tumbled from its nest:

Wait, What?, Episode 82: The Problem with Problems

Oh, and I should warn you–because Graeme is feeling very under the weather, and I am feeling like I want to watch The Raid: Redemption over and over and over until they drag me kicking and screaming out of the movie theater, we won’t be recording this week, so there won’t be a podcast next week.  You understand, don’t you?

In any event, we hope you enjoy this latest installment, and thanks for listening!

29 Responses to “ Wait, What? Ep. 82: The Problem With Problems ”

  1. No, sir, I most decidedly do NOT understand. Who shall provide my long form podcast crack in the absence of a new “Wait, What?” next week? Until this is satisfactorily answered, I believe I speak for everyone who will suffer my withdrawal symptoms when I say: TIME OFF REQUEST DENIED! ;)

    Shakes coming on…will return to complain some more after listening…

  2. You know, listening to the round and round regarding retailers vs publishers I have to say it sounds, at its base, like a confidence problem.

    Publishers at the Image level apparently don’t have the confidence to fully commit and blow it out for fear of poor sales.

    Retailer confidence has been eroded by publishers pumping the market full of so many titles that to think outside the norm in a big way is a considerable risk.

    Trouble is a lack of confidence then feeds easily into a paralysis.

    Analogy: Having worked in food all my life I know that sales covers up cost of goods. The more sales the more wiggle room (Unless you’ve completely air mailed your profit margin). If you don’t have the sales then you need to CREATE the sales.

    On all those shows about rescuing restaurants it’s a 3 step process. Commit to customer service – clean up the place – cut down the forty page menu. I can tell you this works if the end product is good enough.

    Comic retailers can control all 3 of those things as they relate to their business. The problem is, if your “menu” is still cluttered up with low selling / poor quality items and the expectation that you should carry ALL those items regardless then you’re hamstrung before you get two steps out of the gate.

    Being in a small business myself I’m telling you:

    1) Retailers seem to be in a position where ordering extra copies of a book with as much hype in the niche as Saga is an unconscionable risk for a significant portion of the DM.

    2) Publishers as large as Image (and presumably smaller) are too cautious with print runs to push something far in excess of ordering numbers.

    It’s just a series of increasingly small concentric circles since neither of these practices is conducive to GROWING sales. They are not, to my eyes, the practices of confident businesses.

  3. That’s a really fascinating comparison, Smitty, esp. in regards to that third point about cutting down your menu. As you point out, it’s impossible for retailers to carry the full menu but nonetheless their expectation is that they should do as much as humanly possible in that regard.

    I’ve always been curious–is reducing the menu in restaurants advantageous because it cuts down on costs in the kitchen? Or that it narrows the experience for the customer and allows for more focused associations in their restaurant experience? Or some combination, or neither, or wha…?

  4. Jeff,

    It’s all those things and more, really.

    It does cut costs but not just product. It’s training. You only need to learn to make 6-8 dishes just think about how well you will know them. The look, the feel. The perfect doneness. If you’ve got forty things to worry about you do everything to a kind of middling quality. It’s too disparate. You can also staff fewer people. In a great restaurant an 8 top gets 3 Wellington, 3 salmon, and 2 lobsters. At applebees an 8 top could get 8 different things. Your kitchen’s resources are spread thin. So to counteract that you start buying crap you can microwave and plate from three different stations.

    But what about appealing to the masses? Nah, it’s also about identity. You tell people what is great by only having great things on the menu. You develop a rep as THE place for X, Y, and Z. The rest of the alphabet is someone else’s problem.

    I think that’s why comic shops have survived this long. They cater to a very special market. But since they are simply the go between they can’t control the menu when SHARED UNIVERSE / It all counts is the prevailing sentiment.

  5. I’m sure you’ll deal with this next episode (once you’ve actually read the articles in question), but this kind of bothered me. Maybe I’m siding too much with Image, but yeah.

    According to Stephenson the first three issues of Saga qualified for full returnability, and they overprinted more than they normally did (to the extent he called it “pretty aggressive”).

    They ordered a second printing before the book even shipped, and they went 50% higher than the orders they had at that point (and “double what we normally do on a second printing”), and this still sold out immediately.

    More importantly, the ICV2 estimates for Saga #1 are 37,641, none of the second (or third, etc.) printing made it to stores in March, so that’s just for the first printing. Reorders were “over half of the initial orders for that title”. That means about an extra 20,000 copies? It’s hard to say as there are so many numbers around (initial orders or FOC numbers?), but we’ll say it’s in the 15,000-20,000 range, which is more than what most Image titles sell at all. I don’t think you can expect Image to overprint a book by 50% of a (for them) huge print run.


    Jeff, how do you justify buying Glamourpuss? Are you just able to seperate the artist from the art? Do you have any problems with the opinions Sim has said in public?

    Graeme, you need to listen to more Public Enemy.

  6. Strike: Morituri was a pretty interesting book when it was under the auspices of Gillis/Anderson. It falls off sharply when Hudnall and various artists (until they settle on a young, green Mark Bagley) come on board. I think I have Electric Undertow and have never bothered to read it… or I’m missing an issue and never bothered to read it. Either way, I think the concept was pretty outstanding.

    Matthew: My girlfriend (!!) buys Glamourpuss and, for the most part enjoys Dave Sim’s work, so take that as you will. She seems to have no problem seperating the artist from their work.

  7. Gentlemen,

    Another great episode. I so look forward to Tuesdays and my “fix.” (Not sure what to do about next week, but I’ve got a few days to figure that out). Thanks for all that goes into it. Regarding the topics at hand, here are some thoughts:

    Supreme #63 –
    I agree completely with Jeff that the opening of this issue was horribly clumsy, and I immediately forgot it was an Alan Moore – penned issue. It didn’t sound at all like Moore’s writing.

    That said, I agree with Jeff that I did not feel at all lost in reading this, despite the wide gap between issues (that’s putting it nicely, eh?), but it wasn’t memorable to me either, like the overall arc of Moore’s Supreme run is for me. It could be Larsen’s art – I’m not really a fan – or just the whole inevitability of the issue, which is partly my fault as I read an interview or something with Larsen about where he was heading with the series.

    Marvel AR –
    Okay, I understand that this stuff is accessible with the print comic, if you have an iPad or whatever, but if you want to check out digital comics that were already giving you the penciled pages and the inked pages on top of the finished pages, you should check out the Double-Feature digital comics Four Star Studios (which includes Mike Norton and Tim Seeley) are putting out, where you can access all of that stuff and more through their iPad app.

    Strikeforce: Morituri –
    I love this series, at least until around issue 20. (Graeme, I will be interested to hear your thoughts on volume 3, if you continue reading, as it is where the series completely falls off a cliff for me, and don’t – do not – think that getting and reading Electric Undertow is a good idea, sir. You’ve been warned)

    Everything Graeme said about the first volume is true – except for the parts where he’s wrong. This was crazy, good comics. I loved the fact that any one of the heroes could die at any moment. It added some real tension and helped provide a sense of drama within the stories. Plus, I’m a science fiction fan, and this really scratched that itch for me, at the time.

    This is the series that introduced me to Brent Anderson’s art, and I became a fan immediately. (sidenote: it’s also the series that introduced me to Mark Bagley’s art, and I was an anti-fan [not-fan?] immediately, so there you go).

    I discovered this series relatively early in my comic collecting, and it’s always been one of those books that I return to every few years and re-read – at least those first 20 issues. I remember trying to seek out other stuff that this Peter B. Gillis had written, and finding myself terribly disappointed with what I found. Surprisingly, the point where I lost interest was the point where Gillis was off the book and James Hudnall came on. Ironic, I suppose, but there you have it.

    Jeff, I think you should check it out, if you get the chance. It’s a fun read with some interesting characters and conceits. Not earth-shattering stuff, but just good comics, in my opinion.


  8. Man, Graeme’s cranky. I thought the AR things were totally fun and neat!

    Meanwhile, thanks for pointing out that blog post by Steve K. From my end, I’m inclined to agree with him about Simperin’ Steve Wacker. I suspect you guys might be too close to the situation — for those of us on the outside, it was a guy being kind of goofy and playful (if playfully antagonistic) and then a bunch of humorless dudes flipping out in weirdly sanctimonious, condescending ways.

    Point being: I like Simperin’ Steve and I like all of you people and I like the crummy AR stuff and I like comics. Let’s party!

  9. I believe it came out in 1995 and it was all written by 1997. They published it much later, because Liefeld’s imprint went under (I believe it was Awesome Comics). What was neat about this issue (and Awesome comics as written by Moore) was that this was the only comic book doing this. Superman still had a mullet and seeped into the modern age. No one was winking into the Silver Age, so that’s why it worked well in Supreme. Moore did Nostalgia comics well, and his stuff like Judgment Day and Youngblood (which was PURE Marv Wolfman mixed with Warren Ellis Sci-finess) was just so refreshing. Remember, this is still in the midst of Marvels and Kingdom Come before Silver Age nostalgia really set in.

    It works within that context, not within our current context where Morrison has done “Silver Age as Modern Age” much better in the current Action series and even Moore one-ups his Supreme run with Tom Strong.

    – l.k.

  10. Wow, so, RF, you tend to like humorless dudes that act in sanctimonious, condescending ways?

    The Wacker portion of the Iceberg Lounge blog was about the only part I significantly disagreed with. As I expressed in that blog’s comments section:

    “That 90% number? I see it as more valid (but still exaggerated) for conversations where the pro DOES NOT show up. Put up a blog post about a generic pro and the ridiculous comments based on whatever “corporate evil” they’ve been tainted with by association comes up from more voices. Have the pro show up and, normally, that percentage shrinks down significantly. Have that pro behave like Wacker has and the percentages shoot right back up to what you suggest. He’s not just snarky, but dodgy, which leads even the more rational posters to frustration.

    I happen to think the WAIT, WHAT? guys correctly labeled him and that there’d, perhaps, be a less timely, but more sympathetic example you could have used than that particular Marvel personality.”

  11. @Matthew: Yeah, I definitely think the “talking about articles I haven’t read” part of the program went too well? Especially when I think a very good point by Waid–he’s talking about printing 5,000 copies, which is actually going to be more expensive for each issue than the cost when you get to, say, printing a 35K run–either wasn’t mentioned by Graeme or I steamrollered right over it. I’ll see if I can read Stephenson’s piece before I get to the shop and see what Hibbs has to say. (Though that in turn sets us up for a whole different game of telephone).

    As for Sim, it helps a lot that I think the guy’s gynephobia is caused by genuine mental illness. Although I hate to say it (because I think it would aggravate him tremendously), I pity him for it.

    But, overall, yeah. I think getting my degree via English Literature made it easier to separate the artist from the art, generally. Sim’s just doubly easy for me.

    @RF and Kevin Huxford: Gentlemen, disagree if you must, but let’s dial down the use of the word “humorless,” eh? You both listen to the ‘cast–ergo, you must both be fine outstanding gents whose sense of humor works perfectly fine the majority of the time, yes? Especially considering the point of Steve’s post, it’d be a shame for the Popeye-style cloud of fists and heads to break out yet again on this….

  12. I’m not sure if either of you have heard this, but Grant Morrison did a guest DJ set on KCRW’s “Guest DJ” show. You can find the episode/transcript here: http://www.kcrw.com/music/programs/gd/gd120104grant_morrison

    What is interesting is how he points out how Dr. Octagon showed him how to create atmosphere in stories, but The Rutles taught him how to create pastiche that is as good as the original material. I think this should be the soundtrack of the new Action Comics series, if there ever was one: The Rutles “Eine Kleine Middle Klasse Musik” that segues right into Kool Keith (Dr. O)’s paranoid “I’m Seeing Robots” and then ends with the Smiths’ “This Charming Man” because you know that Morrison’s gotta be a Smiths fan.

  13. There’s a problem talking about orders when no one who knows will give out any numbers, so you have to guess what it means when they say “overprinted aggressively”, or “twice our normal number” or “half again the previous orders”. In any case, note that SAGA #1 appears to have been ordered by retailers (and printed by Image) at a level in the first month higher than any issue of EX MACHINA or Y THE LAST MAN or any but one issue of Vaughan’s RUNAWAYS (and considerably higher than the average sales of any of those books in the final year of publication for each). So I’d say retailers took a reasonable risk based on Vaughan’s track record, even if it did fall short of apparent demand (though, for the record, I picked up a copy of SAGA #1 this past week from a store which still had plenty).

  14. Jeff, is this the first Glamourpuss issue you’ve read?
    Because it sounded to me like you thought the second story was a short/one-off, not the continuing saga running throughout the book since… The beginning? I jumped on with issue ten and it was happening then!
    The first half is nearly always a dud – sometimes it’s so insane you have to study it, but usually skippable (I don’t even get what the joke with Zootanapuss is, and it’s been going for three issues!), as is the text page at the end (last ish he posted pictures of Princess Stephanie, because women age and stop being hot!, whilst tying Princess Di and Grace Kelly into his Alex Raymond car crash Pre-destiny malarkey)- but that comic in second half… Most interesting comic published at the moment, hands down. The guy is putting others to shame.

    Matthew Murray – Glamourpuss isn’t the sort of book/art where you want to separate the artist from the work. That would be missing the point! We’re paying our money to watch Dave Sims be himself. Hell, he gives you no choice – Sims is really putting himself into the book. The parts about Drake and Raymond are as much about Sims himself, or at least about Sims telling this story and relating to it/what he thinks they must have been discussing and thinking.
    Check it out – I’m a little calmer now, but was at least as excited as Jeff was after the first issue I read. It will definetly be a change of pace from the last comic you read.

  15. Jeff: my apologies. My use of humorless was only to point out what seemed like an inconsistency in saying how he liked the podcast, but lump you and Graeme in the aforementioned group of humorless dudes. I realized later that it was a bit rude in the way I constructed the point, though…so my sincerest apologies to RF for it coming off needlessly confrontational.

  16. I think one problem about talking about the industry is that rarely does anyone actually discuss actual figures.

    I’ve been told that the icv2 estimates are usually (not always) low, not just because they don’t include UK sales (10-20% more depending on the book, in some cases it can be 50% more), but just for the North American orders.

    Also, I realize I didn’t cite anything in my post, so here we go.

    Stephenson’s blog: http://it-sparkles.blogspot.ca/2012/03/selling-out.html

    Interview with Stephenson: http://www.bleedingcool.com/2012/03/30/the-bleeding-i-talking-with-eric-stephenson-about-image-selling-out/

    icv2 numbers: http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/22625.html

    I’ll be interested to see the estimates for Saga (both the reorders of #1, and for #2) next month.

  17. Jeff first I must vindicate you on the Alan Moore thing. He was offered a new contract but the bit that everyone seems to gloss over is that new contract includes a clause that Moore would not have ever agreed to at that point (That he would have to sign off on more Watchmen stuff, which would be allowing DC to parade that around to everyone).

    Second, I think Mark Waid specifically may discount the 800 page gorilla in the room, I don’t mean this to be mean only blunt but maybe that book he is talking about only being in 500 hundred stores is an incredibly niche product in a market full of catering to a niche audience that would not pull in larger numbers regardless of how many stores it is on the shelf of.

    I think people often make the large mistake of over inflating the imaginary audience for comics (especially second/third rate Superhero comics) that frankly probably doesn’t exist.

    Unrealistic expectations run rampant from people within.

  18. Think nothing of it, Hux! It was me, after all, who introduced the offending term, so I’ll take my lumps as well. In truth, I didn’t mean ANYBODY over here in the Savage Land — no one in particular, anyway. My point was merely that while it’s often said that sarcasm is a difficult pitch in the imaginary world of internet, there’s also no need to assume malevolence at every turn, lurking behind the wink of an emoticonical semicolon.

    On a similar note, I’m always surprised (as in the last two episodes) when our hosts imagine scenarios where Comics Professionals angrily assault them for past criticisms. I think we can all agree that if Mr. McMillan was ever confronted by a Mr. Bendis or a Mr. Fraction (or a Mr. Whoever) in the physical world, it would be all laughs and high fives and high spirits. We know enough about all parties involved to know that nobody’s a petty monster.

    I guess what I’m saying is let’s party.

  19. OMAC #8:
    I’ll echo Jeff that this was pretty dang great. I went back and read the first seven issues over the weekend, and can see that #8 book-ends the series nicely, making the series a reasonably satisfying whole (insomuch as that’s possible under the circumstances). It certainly appears that #8 was the only issue they were able to change based on the cancellation decision, and they wrapped things up surprisingly well. I hope this series becomes the cult classic it deserves to be.

    Strikeforce: Morituri:
    I actually haven’t gotten to the part of the podcast where Our Heroes discuss this yet, but just the mention of it inspired me to dig out my old issues and give the first few a read. One thing that struck me immediately: Strikeforce Morituri #1 was a more compelling first issue than ANY DC New 52 #1 I read (which was most of them). It was a great introduction to the premise and the characters and a compelling story in its own right, all coming off naturally rather than in forced exposition. Don’t understand why more new comics from the Big Two can’t be like this…

  20. “Jeff first I must vindicate you on the Alan Moore thing. He was offered a new contract but the bit that everyone seems to gloss over is that new contract includes a clause that Moore would not have ever agreed to at that point”

    But that’s the point that the article was making. Alan Moore was offered a new contract. That was the opening to begin negotiations. He could have agreed to it or alternatively, come back with an alternate offer. Negotiating is supposed to be give and take but you can’t do that if someone walks away from the table.

  21. “Jeff first I must vindicate you on the Alan Moore thing. He was offered a new contract but the bit that everyone seems to gloss over is that new contract includes a clause that Moore would not have ever agreed to at that point”

    But that’s the point that the article was making. Alan Moore was offered a new contract. That was the opening to begin negotiations. He could have agreed to it or alternatively, come back with an alternate offer. Negotiating is supposed to be give and take but you can’t do that if someone walks away from the table.

  22. RF: I’m glad you took no offense.

    As to how happily things would go in person: I have it from an unimpeachable source that a creative at one of the Big Two expressed how much they wanted to punch me in the face when they saw me at Wizard World Chicago 2007.

    In general, though, I agree with your point. But that’s part of what, to my mind, starts with how the large majority of fans temper their tone when the professional in question even shows up in an online discussion, as long as the pro doesn’t decide to wrestle in the mud with them. In person, everyone is prone to be even more measured. The way Bendis, for example, would conduct himself in person is markedly different than how he’d respond on his message board, for instance.

  23. Doing one of those “I haven’t listened to the entire podcast but am in fear I’ll forget my point” comments… .

    Action #8:

    At first I thought the color-changing costume was a coloring error (had just read at Mindless Ones about the recoloring of Flex Mentallo, and how one character is no longer black). There’s got to be some almost Moore-like mysticism in Grant’s choice of putting a six-point star on Superman’s chest (see also: Jules Pfeiffer’s assertion that Superman is Jewish).

    What do you think of the panel where Superman says, “You want me to wreck you collection, I will… I’ll reduce them to dust if I have to.” It’s a bluff, obviously, but did we just see Superman threaten genocide? Are those cities populated, as the shrunken Manhattan is?

    As for when Brainiac says he is the internet — well, I suppose that can fit into the Brainiac-as-comics-fan (and comics-fan-online-commentary, which we can now get meta about), but I took it more to mean that it was describing its _genotype_ of life. That is, that the internet could become the same type of creature, as Mind2 did, etc. As though it said “I am human”.

  24. It was interesting to hear your takes on Alan Moore’s Supreme and Grant Morrison’s Action Comics in the same podcast – particularly Graeme’s take – since they’re both basically doing the same thing… reconstructive pastiches of Silver Age Superman stories that say less about the world outside of comics than they serve as commentary on comics and the experience of reading comics themselves. The difference between Moore’s Supreme and Morrison’s Action being, Moore did this stuff nearly a decade and a half ago, before it became the thing everyone had done to death, while Morrison is not only following in the well-worn Silver Age pastiche path that Moore and so many others have trod before, he’s following the same path he himself walked, years ago, to much better effect, with All-Star Superman.

    When Morrison first started his Action Comics run, I thought it was going to be his take on Golden Age Superman – the proudly pinko populist who beat up slumlords and war profiteers. That would still be derivative, but at least it would be a different sort of derivative than we’re used to seeing from Morrison – or for that matter, from most anyone who writes Superman or Superman analogues. It would also open the door for some actual social commentary in mainstream genre comic books, which is pretty thin on the ground. Instead I’m seeing more of the same: here’s another Brainiac, with some lazy Johnsian cheap shots at the internet sprinkled on top. Here’s some more stuff on What It Means To Be Superman, because the umpteen different Superman duplicates in All-Star Superman didn’t give us enough of that.

    I don’t know – it’s just kind of depressingly uninspired to me. When you look at stuff like Kirby’s OMAC, or Starlin’s Warlock, or Gerber’s Defenders or whatever, it’s like – it’s not as if that was profound or deep stuff, the stuff of great literature or anything, but even within the confines of the genre comics they were writing, those guys were still trying to say something about the actual world that they and their readers were experiencing. And now when I pick up a mainstream comic, it’s like half the time all it’s doing is talking about old comics and the experience of reading old comics. It’s a profoundly impoverished way of storytelling, as though everything worth saying had been finished said twenty years ago and there’s nothing to do now but regurgitate it.

  25. “Don’t understand why more new comics from the Big Two can’t be like this”

    If you put out a comic like Strikeforce Morituri #1 in the Direct Market today, what would be the reaction? I’d bet it would get ripped to shreds because its form and function are so contrary to the standards of the fanboy ghetto.


  26. @RF and Kevin Huxford: I want to thank you gentlemen for being classy *and* continuing to make your points. Would that the rest of the Internet could follow in your footsteps.

    @Ben Lipman: I read the first two issues of Glamourpuss (and maybe even bought them?) when they first came out. Sim’s essay was definitely the main part of the book then, but it had yet to become this….this amazing thing. Since then, I’ve gone back and bought two more back issues and they do indeed set up this car ride with Raymond and Drake in extensive detail….but not only did that sequence I read stand alone, it really upped the ante on the storytelling I’m seeing in the two issues preceding it. Stunning stuff.

    As for the Zootanapuss stuff…well, it’s hard not to see it as Sim trying to win over members of his former audience, make it seem like he’s created a kooky woman-friendly strip (while playing with single page storytelling) with old school fanboy shout-outs. It is deeply, deeply bizarre and more than a little bit of a funhouse mirror.

  27. But goddamn is it beautiful looking. I was marvelling at the delicacy and artfulness of his line last night and it was brethtaking. That double page spread is flat out one of the best pieces of comic art I’ve seen in a long time.

    Picked it up thanks to your enthusing Jeff. You should enthuse more!

  28. I have a question for Mr. Jeff Lester and Mr. Graeme McMillan! Please sirs, will you be commenting on the C2E2 WATCHMEN panel DC held, the “kicking and screaming” comment by Darwyn Cooke and JMS’ horrible comments r.e. Alan Moore? Because if you are planning on doing so I will get some extra jaffa cakes in for the next podcast.

    Apropos of nothing:

    Heard joke once. Big magician in town performing show. On night of show magician calls for volunteer. Young man raises hand. Magician calls him up to stage. Magician says, “To allay any doubts the audience may have could you just confirm that we have never met?” Young man says, “Sure, Dad.” Good joke. Old joke. Everybody laugh. Except Alan Moore. He can just go **** himself, apparently.

    I hope you are both well!

  29. Jeff,

    I’m sure you will discuss it on the next podcast, but do you think with David Brothers “Ethical Rot…” essay and Chris Roberson’s announcement that he is no longer going to work for DC for ethical reasons that there are the beginnings of a new creator rights movement to put pressure on DC and Marvel? Or a movement away from the Big Two to support true creator owned properties in a significant way? I think if a couple of A-list creators take a hardline stand a real groundswell could gain momentum.

    It no longer seems like you are alone, pissing in the wind, on this issue.

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