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Wait, What? Ep. 89: Accidents Will Happen

Jeff Lester

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Oh, I just don’t know where to begin: last episode was held up on account of spinal aggravation and this episode starts with a SNAFU of the kind that had me tearing my rich abundant hair out of my head. (Hmmm, now that I think about it? I think…maybe that was neither my hair nor head?)

But that’s the kind of episode this is–the one where our minds are made up but our mouths are undone. Nonetheless, Graeme McMillan and I were committed to *finally* finishing up answering your questions (seeing as we didn’t answer them in the same month you asked them…or technically the same season) and talking stuff like Action Comics #10; superhero movies and the geek comfort zone; Spawn and Glamourpuss #25; the superlative Zombo; Jennifer Blood; and Sonic Disruptors.

Also, don’t miss our discussion of Minutemen #1, which manages to mention The Dooce, Abhay, Brandon Graham, Internet communication, and put Graeme and I on opposite sides of the Elvis Costello lyrics (see? You weren’t just imagining them!) with Graeme being: “It’s the damage that we do we never know” and me being: “It’s the words that we don’t say that scare me so.”

Oh, plus the tremendous Double Barrel #1; the best reviewed comic in the world; James Ellroy and comics; American Flagg; Zenith; Detective Comics and much more, including exciting news for Wait, What? and a request (at least one!) for listener assistance. In less than two hours? Yessir. You may say, “I don’t want to hear it cuz I know what I’ve done.” (I know, I know.)

So many podcasts to catch up on and add to your collection, but iTunes can keep you hangin’ on (until you’re well hung). Your mind is made up but you can listen to us below:

Wait, What? Ep. 89: Accidents Will Happen

As always, we hope you enjoy and thank you for listening. (Now, if you excuse me, I’m off to cue up Oliver’s Army.)

42 Responses to “ Wait, What? Ep. 89: Accidents Will Happen ”

  1. You guys confusing me for Dan White was hands down the most uncomfortable moment I’ve ever had listening to a podcast. It was doubly surprising cos I had completely forgotten I had asked a question.

    The second most uncomfortable moment Ive had listening to a podcast was earlier in the episode when you two were fighting about politeness online. Listening to Jeff and Graeme fight triggers exactly the same emotional reaction I used to have when my mum and dad fought. (Probably need to talk to my therapist about that)

    Despite those emotionally scaring moments, good podcast.

  2. Sorry for the double post, but as far as Wait, What highlights, you should include Jeff’s story about the Hunger Games in the 70s Marvel Bullpen.

  3. Another great episode. I was surprised that Kurt Busiek’s Astro City did not come up during the discussion of favorite non-big 2 superhero comics (though is it now, technically, a DC property with its home at Wildstorm? There seems to be a loophole here somewhere, since it started at Image. Anyway, that would be my pick for favorite)

    I also wonder, will Dave Sim include the fact that within blood-sucking species of mosquitoes it is the female of the species only that does the blood-sucking, as yet another bit of evidence pointing to the downfall of western civilization, and the world at large, being the fault of women? And will this kernel of knowledge make itself into Glamourpuss?

    chris

  4. Uuuhhhhh MOM AND DAD ARE FIGHTING, WHY!??! (I didn’t get that feeling, Dave, but I totally get what you’re saying.)

    I thought the discussion on twitter behavior/the option as a freelancer to say no, was really fascinating. That question of “what does turning this gig down mean for my quality of life” is one of the reasons I got a full time job. There were definitely times as a musician that I took gigs that I was not excited about because they paid well. Also, work as a freelancer can disappear really quickly for any number of reasons, so a high paying job that looks like a sure thing is always going to be hard to turn down.

    BUT.

    No one is forcing anyone to make comics. It is a choice. I know that the job market sucks, but if an artist is really opposed to the jobs that are available, they can look elsewhere, or take a chance on writing/drawing something else. Ultimately, the jobs that a comic writer or artist chooses? That’s who they are (at least artistically.) And the people who work on BW are going against the wishes of the writer who created the material they’re working with. That doesn’t change because of their personal life.

    All that said, I don’t hate anybody who’s working on this thing, but I’m not buying the books either.

  5. Hey! Look at Jeff’s smiley little face! How can you stay mad at that Mr. McMillan! Seriously, I appreciate you two guys going toe to toe in search of the Truth. A bit upsetting but I’m sure you’re both eating waffles and high fiving right now.

    Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions. I didn’t expect that, having missed the deadline and all. I’m sorry they were so numerous, as I say I thought I had no chance. Apologies and thanks.

    I know you were just messing with me linking Bendis and HVC. (Euuurgh.Ugh.) I did not know there were no laws against false advertising in the USA. Dear God, I feel like a big hick now.

    Hey, Mr. McMillan! George Freeman also did Elric comics for First! I’m glad he moved into something else and (maybe) retired rather than died in a ditch drinking shoe polish. Freeman fans reprasentz! WASTELAND – hoo haa!

    I agree about Ellroy, I was trying to trick you by baiting the trap with Bernet. Y’know, AMERICAN CENTURY wasn’t a bad UNDERWORLD USA type thing. If it had a different artist(Bernet!) you might even have read it. Ooh, you are hard on HVC! You scamps. Mr. Lester’s Batman/Ellroy would be worth a “punch in the cock with a holepuncher”.

    Thanks, Mr. McMillan. I feel less of an idiot about Wilson/Moebius now.

    Glad you are sticking with MUDMAN, Mr. Lester. Do let us all know if you read AMERICAN FLAGG! Mr. Lester!

    Al Ewing is pretty great isn’t he?

    Non Big Two superheroes? NEW STATESMEN is awesome. Fact.

    Less (and better) questions next time. Thanks for letting me take up (too much of) your time. Good luck with the nomination!

  6. Congrats on the nomination! Spectacular! (In related news, I so want to mock up a JEFF LESTER IS poster, with permission.)

    Re: What Jeff and Graham talk about in private that they’d never say in public. Oh, fellahs, we’re all family. You’re free to espouse your undying love for each other in front of us. Really. It’s okay.

    As for James Ellroy comics: maybe you have had to have lived/grown up in Los Angeles, but the sense of place is as important as it is in Chandler’s LA, and any comics would have to be expansive and really tied to period visuals and geography. And it’s my hypothesis that Ellroy’s main trilogy is as much a hidden history/creation myth of modern Los Angeles as, say, Chinatown is.

    So, that said, I think a format kind of like 20th Century Boys might work, with beats just for the city itself. I find it hard to think of breaking it into 20-something-page floppies. But now I’m going to contradict myself, because I just remembered that Jason Lutes’ Berlin was in floppies — though I only became aware of it, and bought it, in trades.

    Oh man, American Flagg! and Daredevil (I think it was issue #181, where DD sat with a paralyzed Bullseye and a revolver) blew my fucking mind when I was in college.

    dan

  7. Regarding your question about Howard the Duck, here’s a post from Jim Shooter about it

    http://www.jimshooter.com/2011/08/gerber-and-duck-part-3.html

    It looks like Gerber didn’t actually get much from the settlement.

  8. …if you can ever believe a single word of Jim Shooter’s self-serving, revisionist blog.

  9. When I started off working as a freelance designer, I did sex ads in the back of a newsweekly. I got over moral objections pretty quickly and learned to separate myself from the work. It’s a job, not a world changing event, and that’s how BWM should be seen, if there’s an audience, then fine, if not, the writers and artists should be allowed to work on the next project. The moral high-roading about how “they should say no!” is such a first-world response that screeches entitlement.

    As for the fight, I’m on Team Graeme, and honestly, next time you do a call for questions, you can just create a Jeff soundboard and hit soundbites at random. “This didn’t work for me” “This wasn’t perfect” “I’m not the audience for this” “I’m a pesky-tarian” “hehehe” “Kirby” “I’m not buying Marvel” “it’s close, but not quite there” “and yes, well, no but” “mm-hmm” “I would say the first one, but really it’s the second for the most part, sorry” “What book/movie/song/meal/sign post tract have I read/seen/heard/stopped in public to read out loud that I’ve really liked? Well, let me tell you about the one that I have that I didn’t like” (mash that one for 20 minutes to an hour). Also, in a big Jeff style qualifier, I kid because I love and I get upset when I don’t have a Wait What to listen too and those are the things that I come back for. As well as the shit-talking.

    Alternatively, please, please, please, limit people to 2 questions.

    As for laws against false advertising, that’s Freedom of Speech.

  10. I cried big tears last week, but now that you’re back I’m not angry.

    Anyway, thanks for answering my Spawn question. Like you guys, I haven’t read Spawn in years. A few days before the post in which you solicited questions, I saw a big omnibus-style tpb of early Spawn issues. It reminded me of when Spawn was a top-seller, with a movie & “adult” cartoon on HBO. There was never any substance to the series, but it sold on the strength of McFarlane’s art and general nastiness. I kind of wonder if it could be a success again with the right hook, but the concept was so self-limiting and one-note that I doubt it.

  11. Graeme, your slip of the tongue wasn’t wrong. Drag*Con is rife, very rife. Just check this out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJrfNsxlq1Y

  12. Congrats on the nom, guys. Believe it or not, you earned it.

    As for seminal podcast moments, the first one that came to my mind was the Stever Gerber DEFENDERS episode – that one always stuck with me. Alternately, one of the AMAZING eviscerations of FEAR ITSELF you guys did (maybe the one where you talk about the Fraction interview about it being in Spider-Man’s character because “Look, there it happened”?); or, as Dave Clarke mentioned, the Marvel Bullpen Hunger Games pretty perfectly encapsulates what sets this podcast head and shoulders above similar ilk.

  13. Oh man, I love the dude’s work and all, but seeing Brandon Graham double-down on his position on twitter by just restating the whole thing in different terms, yet again, was really depressing. Dude’s perpetually 23 years old, forever pissed at people living in reality and upset that not everyone is willing to live in the, cheap, dreary, pun-driven weed dream he calls home. I’m against Before Watchmen all the way, but I hate the game, not the players.

    And then he talks about artistic expression like his shit somehow has theme and character beyond “do right by your friends” “know when its over” and “look at my high-deas, wooo!”

    And he’ll be loved for it by the indy community for “fightin’ the man” even though he hasn’t solved any problems so much as just personally insulted a few hard-working individuals. He’s “passionate” so it’s okay for him to passive-aggressive, aggressive-aggressive, personally insulting, dismissive of others with different opinions than himself and more.

    I wish Brandon Graham was half as truly understanding, empathic and passionate and he’s convinced himself and his audience that he is. Dude would step on his momma three-times-over if he thought it’d buy him even a dime-sack more of self-righteous-blowhardry.

  14. Congrats on the award nom! I suggest submitting the podcast episode where Jeff is eating Mallomars. Wait, that’s every episode. What about the episode where Graeme was shelling and eating pistachios? That was grounbreaking. Or how about the one where you guys talk about the Waffle Window?

    By the way, is this nomination for best food podcast? Nom, nom.

  15. Thanks for the slightly mixed up Cindy & Biscuit shout out Jeff!

    Nice show as always. When you guys get into it it can be fascinating listening, but what’s nice is the way you can swing back to lighthearted banter. It’s a testament to the fact that you’re clearly good friends.

    Also – jeff, you and I are having weirdly synchronistic comics experiences, including recently re-reading Moore’s Swamp Thing, digging out back issues of Sim’s mind-blowing, jaw-dropping Glamourpuss, and skipping a week of podcast recording, but giving a shout out to Fiffe’s awesome Tony Salmons interview.

    Also: Zenith Phase 3 is best comics ever.

  16. @Alan: Sorry but, no, laws against false advertising are laws against false advertising. We actually have Freedom of Speech/Expression/Whathaveyou over here too. I hear England’s 1689 Bill of Rights got the ball rolling and a French 1789 Declaration carried the good work on. Now it’s a kind of International thing so lots of people have it all over the place. Quite a few of these people manage to have have laws against false advertising as well. Feel free to send blue jeans and Scorpions records though!

  17. So for me the recent episode that sticks out is the one where Jeff describes the Bats vs. Owls conflict. Although I am not sure someone without context would get the comedy there, although an overdose of chill helps.

    Also I am kinda sorry about bursting your finished with questions bubble (not really) but if you recall back to April. You guys decided to stop answering your twitter question list for a break to answer questions in the thread. So technically there are still questions out there.

  18. I think it’s best on the web and in this place we call reality to try and speak tactfully when trying to be delicately critical, having said that, it’s great to see when someone decides to just roll on over someone with a steam train of blunt words. Without an awkward faux pas or a trollish swing at someone, what would we have to gossip about? Bleeding Cool wouldn’t be able to put out a magazine, that’s for sure.
    Speaking your mind/web based dickery is an endless stream of bitter entertainment for all and without it our news sites, blogs, podcasts and twitter streams would be meaningless piles of niceties.
    How did you chaps find Bleeding Cool magazine? The pricepoint ($2.00 here) and opening volley of gossip made it a great purchase right away, as did the format- I think it’s the first comics magazine I’ve seen that actually looks like a comicbook. More rectangular floppy magazines please publishers.
    Congratulations on your best speculative fiction fan or news podcast general award nomination! Genuinely well deserved, I think the Mallowmars episode (65.2) stands out among the food saga episodes, that self-aware cold opening with Mallowmar Gerber is the tops. 68.1-69.1 stand out as a warm memory too.

  19. I’d just like to say I’m bummed about DEFENDERS doing so poorly saleswise. As it happens, just last night I sat and read all the issues that have come out so far and had a blast. It’s a really fun, crazy story, and Mr. Fraction seems to be pouring more into it than he does on some of this other series.

    And the artists have been terrific. I know people get itchy about the Dodsons, but I love ‘em on this one. You’ve also had Lark and Breitweiser and now McKelvie — I just can’t figure out why this isn’t making more of an impression.

    Anyway, great podcast you guys!

  20. I have no idea which casts these occur but…

    I’m a big fan of that cast where Mr. Jeff Lester blowtorches the room with his incadescent rage at the fact that Marvel have let a certain Professor(!) use The Avengers as “his! own! personal! glory! hole!”. Anytime Jeff Lester morphs into a pitch perfect “Alan Moore” is a jolly good time but the greatest of those times is when both Jeff Lester and Graeme McMillan proposed the League of Extraordinary Dick Van Dykes.

    A great showcase of Graeme McMillan’s skills is his stunning use of silence following Jeff Lester’s description of CRYING FREEMAN. That silence is podcasting as Art. Also, Graeme McMillan’s attempts to understand the behaviour of certain people at Marvel in response to criticism is rewarding as a study in bafflement. Which was also Sherlock Holmes’ last case.

    They all occur in different casts so that’s of little use but at least you know I’m paying attention and hoarding the magical memories to get me through a no doubt harrowing and apocalyptic future.

  21. Maybe just send in the clip of Graeme’s Wolverine impression?

    http://theworkingdraft.com/media/podcasts/OldManLoGraeme.mp3

    Anyway, sorry if I was all Debbie Downer with the whole “choices a freelancer makes” issue. What I really wanted to get across was that I understood that being a freelancer does not mean that you get to do whatever you want all of the time. Frequently it’s the opposite. (Not that I think that forgives the creators of Before Watchmen, but I’m not gonna shit all over em either.)

  22. Yeah, Jeff’s chill description of the Court of Owls and his Marvel Hunger Games break down were all kinds of great. His Alan Moore impression is also always wonderful, but let’s not forget Graeme’s Wolverine. I guess you guys could just ten minutes of The Cleanse discussion.

  23. I only wish Americans can take credit for the Scorpions…

  24. @Mike: So do Germany.

    Also: Graeme’s Wolverine For The Win!

  25. Thanks everyone for your suggestions! They were incredibly helpful in trying to figure out what to submit.

    Unless I mucked things up significantly, our sample excerpt from Ep. 84 (Graeme & I recommending DC & Marvel collections, plus the Marvel Bullpen Hunger Games scenario) has been submitted. We’ll keep you in the loop as this thing progresses!

  26. I’ve found Double Barrel utterly compelling. Thanks to Graeme for the original tweet alert.

  27. - I’m really against Before Watchmen artistically and ethically, so I had very little sympathy for Graeme’s plight of the freelancer. By that take, no one has to take responsibility for anything they do, as long as it gets them money, when I would have thought the whole idea behind freelancing is to not have a boss so you only have to take the jobs you want to take.
    The world didn’t end when BW came out, but some of us are a bit shocked by whom we seem to be sharing it with – that it isn’t a fan consensus that the creators are hacks, and isn’t an industry consensus that the creators involved are scabs, is a little boggling to my mind.
    Maybe I just read too many Warren Ellis columns when I was a teen in the late 90’s – I feel creators rights/values have slid backwards, and the fans are chomping at the bit for creators to go back to just shitting out pages indistinguishably.

    – I get through Glamourpuss by not reading the text at the back. I don’t know what Sims was proving by posting a picture of a young Princess Stephanie, and one of her twenty years later, and I don’t want to know.
    I did actually laugh at the fill-in page jokes this issue, so his humour is getting better.

    – Mudman, Kirby Genesis, America’s Got Powers, Danger Club, and Glory are the best non-big two Superhero books. The Mignola books as well, if they count.

    – One of my faves from the podcast was from waaaay back near the start, where you guys discussed the differences between Kirby and Morrison’s takes on Darkseid. I don’t know if a non-comics crowd could appreciate it, but it’s what made me decide to make sure I checked out every ep of the podcast.
    Then again, just playing the new theme song should win the awards.

    “Y’know, AMERICAN CENTURY wasn’t a bad UNDERWORLD USA type thing. If it had a different artist(Bernet!) you might even have read it”

    The original artist, Marc Lamming (?) was pretty good, I thought. He just didn’t get enough issues done. The first year of that title was the bees knees, it was in the second it lost it’s way.

  28. Jeff Lester IS.

  29. While I appreciate the hardline position of Mr. Khosla and Mr. Graham (after all, there is no progress without strong opposition), I can see the point that Mr. McMillan makes about freelancers especially when a week doesn’t go by that I don’t see fundraisers for uninsured creators in bad straits. I can’t really blame people for taking the big payday especially in an industry when so few have successful long term careers.

    Still, it may be theirs to sell, but these creators are trading on their future credibility. Perhaps some like JMS had little to begin with, but for Cooke or Azzarello, it will hard view any future efforts without the taint of BW. I hate to be that guy on the internet quoting Bill Hicks (lest this become an Ennis comic), but after such a mercenary project, every word they now say is suspect and their names on the artistic roll call have asteriks.

  30. @Ben Lipman: I don’t know, I thought Lamming was too inexperienced to pull it off. He had a good go though and showed potential, I’ll give him that. Hey, weren’t there Nazi hobos in the second year of AC? Nazi hobos riding the rails, Ben Lipman. Nazi. Hobos.

    @Before Watchmen: The freelancing thing? Doesn’t that only work if it was the case that unless these guys did BW they’d be grubbing about for work? That might be so for, say, Len Wein. No, not because he is rubbish (he isn’t) but because the industry doesn’t give folk like him (old people) much work, and living on the imaginary dollars Marvel pay him and Herb Trimpe/John Romita Snr for Wolverine is tricky. Also, didn’t he lose his house in an earthquake? I think there’s a strong freelancing argument for Len Wein.

    Darwyn Cooke and the rest? If Darwyn Cooke didn’t do BW he’d be panhandling outside Moonstone comics? If it wasn’t for BW Brian Azzarello would be showing his bum to strangers for the price of Danish? Maybe next time you see JMS at a convention you should press a quarter into his palm before he can ask so he keeps some dignity? When he looks up at you with eyes streaming with gratitude you can then tell him his work is pompous tedium with a clear conscience.

    However, if someone (Adam Hughes was it?) is doing BW to keep his Medical so his wife will be in good health doesn’t that point to a greater problem in the industry that should be addressed pretty quickly by all parties? Isn’t that declared motivation to be involved in BW in and of itself damning of the system as it stands, and worth wider discussion and debate towards some kind of solution. Doing BW might help out Mrs. Hughes but it isn’t doing anything for Russ Heath and it didn’t do anything for Gene Colan, Tony DeZuniga, Dave Cockrum etc. etc. etc.

    Maybe it’s my lack of understanding about how the US system works but wouldn’t it make total sense for all these corporations to support the socialisation of health care? But then maybe they all own Medical Insurance businesses or cemeteries or something. Look, as someone who wants only the best for you I strongly suggest you socialise your Healthcare, America! If you did that Adam Hughes wouldn’t be doing BW and Tony DeZuniga’s wife wouldn’t have had her last hours with her husband tainted by money worries. Yes, well spotted, I am totally willing to emotionally load the argument because people’s health is kind of important. Admittedly, it’s not as important as getting more stories where Rorschach kicks degenerates about in peep show booths stained with dick drippings and stale piss. I mean, I haven’t totally lost all perspective.

    I’m not onboard for BW by the way.

  31. To go off on a tangent, I don’t think American corporations would save all that much money under socialized medicine. Here in the UK (admittedly, not a particularly great showcase for universal health care,) employers are required to make contributions on each of their workers’ national insurance payments. How much would they save if it went to a “Medicare for Everybody!” system?

    This isn’t to say that I don’t really, really prefer the British system. I do. It’s just that the argument that you need to do is show business the light vis-a-vis socialization and how it would increase their profits is a little more complicated.

  32. I’m 100% with Graeme. The argument actually echoed a moment from earlier in the podcast. Dave Sim’s assertion (that the woman needed to die alone essentially because her husband was a soldier, negating any emotional free will she’s entitled to) is one that might make more sense to Jeff. People are effectively asserting that regardless of the artists needs (and hell, wants), “he deserves to be ostracized and shunned because he participated in SOMETHING I DON’T LIKE. It doesn’t even matter that his wife is ill. That’s just one of the sacrifices you make as a creator.” Ultimately, these readers see Moore’s past treatment as more substantive than the lives and well being of those in the present. I don’t know what to say to that. Principle over practicality is what stands in the way of most good that could be done in the world. Principle, honor, morals, loyalty are all very romantic concepts, but they don’t work in a world with gradation.

    Disagreement does not entitle us to define the motivations of each other or tell each other that to live for the honor of strangers. Like soldiers in some imagined war. The writers of BW did it for their own reasons. The only ones who could conceivably be “sell-outs” are the ones that did it solely for money that they did not need (because by definition “selling-out” requires some conscious effort to do so). Since we can’t sift through which is which, they’re simply people writing something we don’t like. BW writers didn’t need to take one for the industry, suffer for a battle that they weren’t involved in (not to mention that won’t changed by their refusal of the project).

    What do the people who don’t support the project hope to accomplish? If you’re doing this just your own personal reasons, then why rage against the creators? If you’re doing this in the hopes that something changes, hasn’t it already? This fight isn’t over creator-rights now, but those in the past. There’s a reason why Grant Morrison isn’t suing for the rights to Fantomex. As such, these are old wars that were fought by people who are mostly dead and by companies that have changed so dramatically as has IP law & culture. WB(not DC) is not going give Moore anything and given his attitude, he wouldn’t take it anyway because he’s still angry about the original event. Unless you find a TARDIS, this isn’t going away or get resolved. Being angry that it happened makes sense for fans. Being pissed that writers in an industry without much longevity, security, benefits (or rights to some of the profits from their creations) need to live too–that’s just petulance.

    This is effectively the children of a divorce arguing about who was at fault 20 years ago and somehow coming around to blame the step-parents.

  33. @Nate S: I don’t really see where you are coming from. Who is suggesting that they’d rather see creators starve like dogs than do BW? Who said it wasn’t important that Adam Hughes’ wife is ill? In fact that last one indicates there are important industry issues that creators should be addressing with a united front. And if they can’t show a united front when it comes to something like BW how far is adequate Health cover (however it is funded or provided) going to get?

    Mind you, you seem to think all the wars that needed to be fought for creators have been fought and won because Grant Morrison doesn’t care what happens to Fantomex. I don’t think that’s true myself.

    But then I reckon that principle, honor, morals, loyalty are *all* that make a world with gradation actually work. Without them you’ve got Hell on Earth, literally. (And I do mean literally.)

  34. Your finest moments are numerous

    The two back to back episodes discussing the new 52 last year were fine examples of the fragile beauty of wait what. Loaded with insight, humour and a special guest. And don’t forget Jeff’s Alan Moore impression!

  35. I like what Nate S. said. Hearing the argument, which I thought was a great conversation on both parts, it was clear that Graeme’s take on the BW creator situation was based around the people. Taking Adam Hughes as an example, he’s interested seeing, before judgement, what someone’s situation was (which, granted, is nothing we deserve to be privy to).

    I do think this is in contrast to many comments I have seen, where people have their own strict definitions of certain concepts, map these creators against that, and then render judgement. I do not consider Jeff a sabre-rattling cultural warrior in this sense, but we get an example of what I’m talking about when he says “people don’t know they’re selling out even when they are.” People’s actions must fit into these per-determined categories, and in this case they don’t even fit well.

    It’s like when you’re writing a story. Do the characters drive the story, or the genre and its expectations drive it? I prefer the stories where the characters wants and needs decide where the story go, and I prefer conversation to go the same way.

    I don’t know if any of that made sense, but I feel that’s a good 75% of my feelings on the subject. Eh, maybe 70%.

  36. Adam Hughes wife has been posting around Bleeding Cool defending her fella for doing Before Watch,en, and although I can see why she wouldn’t mention it, she has given reasons for Hughes taking the job, and need for medical cover due to illness wasn’t one of them.

  37. @JohnK (UK): Plenty of fans have said all that and more. I’m not attributing all of these ideas to anyone here, but Jeff does appear to at least think it’s more important to stand on principle than for the more practical need for something like healthcare. Now it’s possible he was agreeing with the netizens right be the anonymous gossiping, screaming, ill-mannered horde we all know and love. I could be misinterpreting what he said, but that’s how it came off to me. Besides, BW (and a stand for or against it) is not the equivalent of adequate healthcare. DC/Moore is a battle fought and lost (or won depending on your perspective) decades ago. It should not in anyway be comparable to a basic life necessity.

    Regarding GM, I meant that what happened to Moore won’t happen again because corporations as a whole have become far more contract-savvy and creators seem to have accepted that work-for-hire won’t entitle them to any future profits (hence, why very few of them sue for profits these days. All the major lawsuits are from decades ago). So, if the point of the argument against BW (since what happened to Moore cannot in any fashion be undone) was to eliminate such abuses in the future, then it is fruitless because that’s not likely to happen again. So, fans should be fighting battles that are effecting the creators of today, battles that can be won because they haven’t been lost yet.

    And you can have principles, morals, honor, and loyalty in the world, but when they fail to be practical or become solely conceptual, they stand in the way of progress. Religion being a major example. I mean, concepts of right and wrong are fine, but whether something is effective or ineffective should matter more. Something like the death penalty is not effective (as studies have shown), but honor and principle might lead us to think it is. Standing with Moore won’t accomplish anything (though it might’ve in the 80’s). I’m just saying that fans should choose their battles better because, as far as comics go, there are bigger battles to fight.

  38. @Nate S: Nice characterisation of everyone with a differing view as an uncouth mob. Okay, BW isn’t the same as Healthcare. I don’t think I said it was,if I did, hey, I was wrong. It was more about creator solidarity not exactly being proven, with BW, to be fantastic. And there are areas we can all agree on as being important that might need that in the future.

    It won’t happen again? It’s a lovely thought but I guess I don’t buy that at all. The problem with WATCHMEN isn’t the same as the problem with w-f-h. WATCHMEN wasn’t done as w-f-h. Alan Moore has no problem with the work he did as w-f-h being expoloited. He even gave a complimentary blurb for Azzarello’s first Constantine TPB. I wish I was as certain as you that contracts were just great now and we’ll never see any, or just “very few”, future disputes. I wish I was as certain as you that what happened to Moore won’t happen again. Because what happened to Moore is still happening. It’s happening right now.

    Yes, being against BW is an attempt to at least help such abuses not happen in the future. Because they will happen again. They will happen as long as these companies can get away with it. And they will get away with it forever if no one ever says boo to a goose. Will it accomplish anything, this speaking up? Almost certainly not. That’s not really a reason not to try. But then I believe BW is a battle that affects today’s creator’s.

    I don’t know what to do about that last paragraph. I have no idea how honor and principle lead to supporting the death penalty. If I disagree with you then I’m a religious person in favour of the death penalty? I’m neither and I still disagree with you; I disagree that it’s okay to ignore the wrongs done to Alan Moore because it was, what, a long time ago. It wasn’t a long time ago. It’s happening now, in front of everybody and certain creators are seemingly okay with that.

  39. JohnK (UK): Ummm…I wasn’t calling you or anyone else who disagrees with me uncouth at all. I actually enjoy discussing this stuff and ad hominem attacks don’t foster any kind of discussion. I was talking about Jeff’s idea there having to be a loud, uncontrollable and vocal group on the net to at least keep things interesting. That’s fair because this isn’t just a review podcast, but an industry one, so there’s definitely room for gossip and the sort of net rage we’ve all engaged in at some point. However, I couldn’t agree with Graeme regarding ad hominem attacks and then go calling you names.

    I meant that the company will have such ironclad contracts, there’ll be no need to steal from anyone. Effectively, they make you sign something away everything at the door. No oral promises or handshake deals as was the way back then. So, lawsuits are a lot less likely. Not necessarily fair of course, but laying out the terms of the agreement in such a way avoids any future disagreement.

    And if it is happening today, with DC and Marvel doing what was done to Moore, to someone right now, who is it happening to and why aren’t you fighting for that person(s)? I’d wager fans would have a much stronger point if they were fighting for someone who needed it right now. Do you mean what happened to Moore is happening right now?

    That last paragraph was less artful than I would’ve liked. Religion and the death penalty were merely examples of a principle/honor based system gone awry, not that you personally were apart of either.

    If it won’t accomplish anything, why do it is my point. Fans can use their voices for something practical that will help creators today like better salaries, profit sharing, healthcare, CBLDF, donations for older creators(affected by the same bad deals as Moore but who actively need the help right now). Jeff for instance stopped reading Marvel for what I thought were mostly specious reasons (which seemed to be based solely on Marvel ridiculous self-promotion), but they were his and when he talked about treatment of Marvel employees, I totally agreed. That was a reason to get behind. There are more important things to stand for then a battle that the generals have forgotten, but left the soldiers fighting. These things are effecting people right now and no one’s advocating for them. I think it’s less Moore’s treatment for some and more that Watchmen is such a sacred tome to many which somewhat deflates the righteousness that some fans approach this with.

  40. @NateS: Apologies for misconstruing your words. But that’s why I disagree with Mr. McMillan. You can’t dictate people’s reaction to your words. You (not you, just “you” as in “all of us”) may think you’ve been witty and amazing only to find that other people are cut to the quick by what you have said. Should you not ever risk saying anything that might cause offence? How soon before you stop risking saying anything of substance and the Internet just becomes a virtual world of people raising their hats to each other and passing on? But with porn.

    As for ironclad contracts and lack of disagreements, isn’t that how it’s supposed to work anyway, even “way back then”? It doesn’t though; otherwise a lot of lawyers are going to be training for a second vocation now everything is much better. There’s a lack of science teachers, I hear.

    Yes, I mean what’s happening to Alan Moore is happening right now. Right now. Alan Moore, what’s happening to him? This, right now. I guess, continuing your military analogy that makes me someone who has stumbled on a Historical Re-enactment and mistaken it for the real thing. I’d not agree. It isn’t in the past. It started in the past and pollutes the present and will infect the future if it is left unopposed. It’ll probably do that anyway you might say so…

    …if it won’t accomplish anything, why do it? Because…it might? Because I think it’s right? The future’s not certain, I don’t think. Scientists may disagree. It’s always worth a go to change things for the (perceived) better? Where’s the harm? If you think this is a worthless impractical cause, okay. But am I not free to pursue it and yet also pursue other more, to you, worthy causes? Why does one preclude the other? All the people not behind BW are doing is not buying some comics and calling attention to a (perceived?) injustice. What’s wrong with that? Trust me, people have an infinite resource of outrage and when something you judge more appropriate rolls along (and it will) they’ll be ready. They probably won’t change anything then either but, y’know what, they’ll give it a go. They’ll have a pop at it. Because maybe this time things will change.

  41. Hey Graeme, were you talking about Jennifer Blood #13 when you referred to the most recent issue in the series?
    Picked it up on your recommendation, it was nice enough but not sure what you ment by it completely turning the series into something amazing. Then again this is the first issue of it Ive read.
    Could you elaborate a little on your reactions to it?

  42. Yeah, accidents do happen and your video post on this blog made the idea less toxic and more fun. Thanks for sharing. I would have to go through your past episodes quickly.

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